Doctor Who 2017: renaissance or car crash?

For discussion of series 10 of Doctor Who starring Peter Capaldi

Doctor Who 2017: renaissance or car crash?

Postby Flying Tiger Comics » Thu Jun 02, 2016 7:54 pm

When it returns, will the ratings bounce back? Will there be the hoped-for turnaround in popularity? Will the show recapture the zeitgeist?

Or will it continue its loss of viewers and generally be considered tired, etc.?

With Chibnall on the horizon, and knowing how the 2005 version of the show seems to purge the cast when a "showrunner" leaves, is 2017 in fact going to be a dead rubber? Even if Moff continues the trolling of the fans?

Care to estimate its viewership? There's lots of data, and lots of obfuscation too, but with American ratings for their networks shifting to overnight+35 days we can agree to use something similar, say month of broadcast, for each ep.

Thoughts?
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Re: Doctor Who 2017: renaissance or car crash?

Postby bobmcpherson » Thu Jun 02, 2016 8:08 pm

No it is done. When the show returns, it will be the same old...though more likely worse SJO crap...in fact expect an ep where some planet is considering leaving the Earth Empire and the Doctor kills all those who want to leave because they are really Daleks or Krals or somehing.....

Then we will get an ep where the Doctor lands on the Planet Trump and blows it up...just because.

Then in a very special episide, we will get an story where in the future EVIL HUMANS do not want Tractators using the same bathroom as them until the Doctor makes them or he will kill them all.

The SJOs as evidence on this board will either rule or ruin. They do not give a damn about the show.

Oh and the companion will be revealed to a lesbian Muslim..........
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Re: Doctor Who 2017: renaissance or car crash?

Postby Flying Tiger Comics » Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:05 pm

I'm surprised they didn't go the full muslim in the slave bag as companion. But then there's scope a-plenty in the actual episodes to give offence and lecture mainstream viewers, so their cause is not lost.

I don't think it will shed too many viewers, to be honest. I think it is hitting the dyed in the wool number of people who will take it up, factoring in the shrinking but still significant American "fan" audience who largely cling to it as another "genre" show - which it shouldn't be.

If it follows the same eerie echoing path of 79-89 I think 2017 will be a ho-hum sort of affair, given that most of those who have had enough have definitely left and this 2017 season hasn't offered anything to bring people back.

I don't think it will face some sort of cancellation crisis because Chibnall is already booked in and they'd give him at least one year.

The unfortunate aspect is that with the whole year likely to be subject to a reset button, this is when the dirty protest style of writing can really go full bottle, bit like the way they threw the toys out of the pram at the end of the pungent virgin books run, and again with BBC books. I feel that there will be some deliberate effort to troll on a grand scale, much as Jonathan "Cheers" Blum fantasises about.

Or like with current Marvel movies versus "Marvel" comics - movies have gigantic audience and much praise, so the hacks doing the comics are going out of their way to do "edgy" (boring) "controversial" (leftwing, anti-white, anti-heterosexual) stories and subvert the heroes and the idea of heroism itself.
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Re: Doctor Who 2017: renaissance or car crash?

Postby LizR » Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:18 am

More a case of if you flog a dead horse long enough, the wheels fall off.

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Re: Doctor Who 2017: renaissance or car crash?

Postby Flying Tiger Comics » Sat Jun 04, 2016 1:27 am

"I'm heavily into meaningless aphorisms."

"That's cool."
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Re: Doctor Who 2017: renaissance or car crash?

Postby Rubbernecking » Sat Jun 04, 2016 1:51 am

I've given up expecting what I'd love to see (Doctor really being Doctor-ish and solving mysteries) and bracing myself for more companion hijacking the narrative.
And I'll be watching every episode as well. Out of motorized instinct!
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Re: Doctor Who 2017: renaissance or car crash?

Postby Flying Tiger Comics » Sat Jun 04, 2016 4:38 am

There is definitely a spectrum for example in Sherlock Holmes from ultra traditional / the original stories through Rathbone and Bruce movie / radio plays to Brett, to ...meets Jack the Ripper to Robert Downey Junior to the awful "Sherlock", and Who is almost identical in the spectrum sense.

I agree it would be awesome to have story driven episodes with mysteries, adventures and what have you rather than soapboxes, hyperbolic shouting, fesity companions with big mouths pontificating and mary sue-ing the show. Like you I doubt it will move back to the story / traditional "fan favourite" type mysteries unless Chibnall gets inspired or unless there is an unexpected falls-off-the-cliff moment with the adventures.

Sad to see Big Finish getting infected with the same disease too. No haven left.
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Re: Doctor Who 2017: renaissance or car crash?

Postby Bowtiesarecool » Sat Jun 04, 2016 3:38 pm

The episode(s) to keep an eye on will be the series final. Moffat's last chance to leave his mark.

Let's just hope he doesn't do anything stupid...
The Doctor died with Capaldi. The Chibnall era is non-canon.

There are no Doctors before William Hartnell.

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Re: Doctor Who 2017: renaissance or car crash?

Postby Heccypoo » Sat Jun 04, 2016 3:44 pm

Lawks-a-lordy, my bottom's on fire...
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Re: Doctor Who 2017: renaissance or car crash?

Postby paulhickling » Sat Jun 04, 2016 7:33 pm

I'm not as hyper-critical as many on here, but after a female Master, and THAT regeneration, I can't help thinking he really will do something he thinks is bold, and will also piss off everyone. Meaning of course, fans. He is definitely someone who feels the need to make his mark in a big way.
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Re: Doctor Who 2017: renaissance or car crash?

Postby Bowtiesarecool » Sat Jun 04, 2016 7:46 pm

paulhickling wrote:I'm not as hyper-critical as many on here, but after a female Master, and THAT regeneration, I can't help thinking he really will do something he thinks is bold, and will also piss off everyone. Meaning of course, fans. He is definitely someone who feels the need to make his mark in a big way.


I noticed that after he buggered up the regenerations by adding in The War Doctor.
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Re: Doctor Who 2017: renaissance or car crash?

Postby iank » Sat Jun 04, 2016 10:52 pm

One last dose of poisonous bile spat at long-term fans does seem pretty inevitable at this point.
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Re: Doctor Who 2017: renaissance or car crash?

Postby Flying Tiger Comics » Sun Jun 05, 2016 1:16 am

paulhickling wrote:I'm not as hyper-critical as many on here, but after a female Master, and THAT regeneration, I can't help thinking he really will do something he thinks is bold, and will also piss off everyone. Meaning of course, fans. He is definitely someone who feels the need to make his mark in a big way.


It's his manner and form that is at fault. Firstly Doctor Who is meant to be and funded as mainstream prime time entertainment. Stripped of all the obfuscatory persiflage of the apologists about changing viewing habits and the rest of the wibble, there is still a prime time, there are still hit shows, some shows are still getting fantastic numbers however one slices it up or shades in other ways of viewing and so on.

Against that backdrop, Doctor Who has gone from acclaim and mainstream success with a general audience - as it was meant to have - under RTD, to being the worst kind of niche programming with content that is deliberately provocative and offensive when it isn't just as preachy as an arts grad in a wine bar.

I didn't like some parts of RTD - oh cry me a river! So what if I didn't like it? The general show was fine, we watched it as a family and on rewatching it on DVD as a "fan" friends and family would hear it playing and come and watch some or ask me to put it on in the living room so everyone could watch.

For all the often enumerated reasons, that just doesn't happen any more, ever. I stopped watching, and pretty much everyone else has too. It now affects people negatively to the point they avoid watching it in fact, even in repeat.

One thing the view figure voodoo priests never really touch upon is that within the MILLIONS! who STILL WATCH IT! it's certain that many of the "casual" viewers - who in fact were regular viewers, every week without fail, have long since gone. In their place the viewing figures have suffered a replacement of the veteran viewers with the fan(atics), cultist types and Stephen James Walker crusader types. Fair enough, a viewer is a viewer one could argue, but in fact the mainstream viewers are what give a show longevity.

The example I use is LOST. It had the identical core cultist / fan / niche / right-on viewers and it always would have had. But in its heyday it also had many millions more, who watched it, read it, talked about it and all of that. Doctor Who was exactly the same in the Tennant era. And I was not a big fan of it at the time. Didn't loathe it as I loathe the current McCoyesque antics, but didn't love it to pieces.

I think, reading some of the nonfiction about the viewer replacement, the groups that have generally been lost are families-watching-as-a-family and the teen girls. The steady diet of violent stuck up cows aka Moffy Sues and truly repetitive "ideas" like wangsty self questioning Doctor has not endeared the last few years of the show to the audience.

For those who say Moff doesn't even care about the general audience - I agree. There has been zero effort to ever fill in the downtime during his reign. RTD kept the show out there even when it wasn't airing, and the cast embraced his ethos, which is after all not only common sense but also a tribute to their love for and belief in what they were doing. The Moff era is very much the BBC luvvie at its worst type - "that's a wrap, now let's all f_ck off to America to get some fellation".

One last oddity I noted was the way Coleman got to decide to stay another year. What a story that must have been behind the scenes. Another example if needed that Moff has no coherent vision of any kind for the show - it is all carefully scripted and linked up with arcs, is it? That's why a supporting character (who was inappropriately given the heroic lead rather than the juvenile* role intended) was written out... and back in.

With that sort tsouris going on off stage, it is guaranteed that this production period has been unusually chaotic and stress causing to the cast and crew. It appeared to me that Matt Smith ended up wanting to GTFO ASAP, rather than trying it for another year or two - he was far too young to ever remotely be at risk of typecasting, and the Troughton "just do 3 years" myth has been used a few times too often at this point. Capaldi being a prime example - there are many leads who stay with a show for a decade, still do films etc. - not that most of the Doctor Who leads were every going to be A List stars, and Capaldi has certainly never been one. The turnover of cast is down to the "all imperial freemen die when the Emperor dies" principle established with this show. One more toxic aspect that needs to bog off.

Otherwise imagine the original show losing some of the best performances by Pertwee and Baker, T due to change in production side staff - ridiculous on the face of it! And yet exactly what the 2005 iteration has done, turning the random events around RTD's departure into rule of law. Pathetic. Chibnall should be afforded his chance with Capaldi. If successful I think you'll find Capaldi will mysteriously stay on an extra year or two to cleanse his palate.

*juvenile = person asking questions
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Re: Doctor Who 2017: renaissance or car crash?

Postby greystone_06 » Sun Jun 05, 2016 9:23 pm

Bowtiesarecool wrote:The episode(s) to keep an eye on will be the series final. Moffat's last chance to leave his mark.

Let's just hope he doesn't do anything stupid...


Don't be silly, it will be a Moffat written gem where he reveals that he was really Sidney Newman all the time and that DW really is his show... Or some old crap like that.
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Re: Doctor Who 2017: renaissance or car crash?

Postby Flying Tiger Comics » Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:39 am

greystone_06 wrote:
Bowtiesarecool wrote:The episode(s) to keep an eye on will be the series final. Moffat's last chance to leave his mark.

Let's just hope he doesn't do anything stupid...


Don't be silly, it will be a Moffat written gem where he reveals that he was really Sidney Newman all the time and that DW really is his show... Or some old crap like that.



Russian media replacing Ukraine historical personages with Russified versions, and showing inaccurate ethnicities as present in Ukraine history, is genocidal and was reported as such to the UN.

Moffisation of English history is identical, but gets a free pass for some reason.

This has become open cultural warfare and needs to be addressed as such.

And the saddest part of all is that if the hacks could be arsed to spend even a few hours doing school child level research they'd find a wealth of ways to appropriately (though still intrusively) insert blacks, middle easterners and asians into English history, and indeed discover that quite a few "foreign" historical figures were in fact British - the real life Zorro was Irish, one of the greatest islamic pirates and rapists was Welsh, a good fraction of the smugglers on the Cornish and Irish coasts were North African, and on and on.

But no, this isn't about accuracy, or history, or inclusiveness. It can't be about inclusiveness when it is excluding the host.

This is cultural marxism manifesting as the enabling of parastism on a body politic, and it will stop. One way or another.
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Re: Doctor Who 2017: renaissance or car crash?

Postby bobmcpherson » Mon Jun 06, 2016 5:28 am

It is about hate. Pure and simple.

SJOs hate. They have nothing else.
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Re: Doctor Who 2017: renaissance or car crash?

Postby LizR » Mon Jun 06, 2016 5:55 am

Bowtiesarecool wrote:The episode(s) to keep an eye on will be the series final. Moffat's last chance to leave his mark.

Let's just hope he doesn't do anything stupid...

What are the chances of that? :)
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Re: Doctor Who 2017: renaissance or car crash?

Postby Flying Tiger Comics » Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:19 am

My dream end to series 10:

all the main characters are apparently killed - blown up, disintegrated, thrown into the void, lasered, whatever.

smash cut to black after obligatory Blackadder the Second type final panning shot of the dead.

The end...


...Series 11 starts with a guy in bed apparently the amensiac Doctor, no "hilarious" post-regeneration antics and the usual crap, paranoid sinister suspicion similar to the Prisoner.

Then it turns out the woman in the next bed is actually the new Doctor and we've been following the adventures of the Master all episode.

As for what happened between series 10 and series 11 - never explain it. Call it the Discontinuity and turn it into the new Time War. make it the 1989iverse style "stuff happened... and now we're back and it's 2005".
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Re: Doctor Who 2017: renaissance or car crash?

Postby bobmcpherson » Mon Jun 06, 2016 5:00 pm

Flying Tiger Comics wrote:My dream end to series 10:

all the main characters are apparently killed - blown up, disintegrated, thrown into the void, lasered, whatever.

smash cut to black after obligatory Blackadder the Second type final panning shot of the dead.

The end...


...Series 11 starts with a guy in bed apparently the amensiac Doctor, no "hilarious" post-regeneration antics and the usual crap, paranoid sinister suspicion similar to the Prisoner.

Then it turns out the woman in the next bed is actually the new Doctor and we've been following the adventures of the Master all episode.


As for what happened between series 10 and series 11 - never explain it. Call it the Discontinuity and turn it into the new Time War. make it the 1989iverse style "stuff happened... and now we're back and it's 2005".


While I think the Doctor becoming a woman would be just as bad as his turning black, I do maintain a policy of just ignoring rotten WHO stories. Nearly all of McCoy, TRIAL OF A TIME LORD and NUWHO looks like a hunk of swiss cheese to my mind. JUST because someone does something stupid does not mean we have to acknowledge it.

If Moffat is going to propose the insane idea of rewriting human history then ERGO anyone can rewrite Moffat's history on WHO. Save for Matt Smith's first two seasons and a few from his third, Moffat never existed.

If I was Chibnall, I would just ignore whatever mess Moffat leaves and do whatever he felt like. Have the same respect for Moffat that Moffat shows for everyone else...........assuming of course that Chibnall does not just turn out to be Moffat Pt 2. Which is very possible considering the free fall the state of the Arts are in Western culture today.

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Re: Doctor Who 2017: renaissance or car crash?

Postby Flying Tiger Comics » Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:05 pm

I suggested the use of the Discontinuity, which is essentially what RTD did with his Time War initially anyway, to allow within their current straightjacket the total binning of rubbish like Moffat's skid marks on the show.

It's become so much like a comic book that they should take the final small step of installing the retcon / reset button.
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