Doctor Who 2017: renaissance or car crash?

For discussion of series 10 of Doctor Who starring Peter Capaldi

Re: Doctor Who 2017: renaissance or car crash?

Postby iank » Thu Sep 01, 2016 10:56 pm

markhuk wrote:
mr borusa wrote:The series is so sh*t now it makes stuff like Timelash and Twin Dillema seem like classics.


It really doesn't


The Twin Dilemma pwns anything made in the last four years.
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Re: Doctor Who 2017: renaissance or car crash?

Postby LizR » Thu Sep 01, 2016 11:18 pm

iank wrote:The Twin Dilemma pwns anything made in the last four years.

:D
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Re: Doctor Who 2017: renaissance or car crash?

Postby shuzbot » Fri Sep 02, 2016 10:25 am

iank wrote:...I'm not a foaming at the mouth raving lunatic. :D


Shame, you could have applied for a job in Cardiff.
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Re: Doctor Who 2017: renaissance or car crash?

Postby iank » Fri Sep 02, 2016 10:29 am

Dammit, I could have been showrunner by now! :evil: :D
(Doctor Who) has been hijacked and redefined as a lucrative modern franchise. They've literally taken a square peg and painfully made it fit a round hole by taking enormous liberties with much of its fundamental essence. There's no turning back now.

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Re: Doctor Who 2017: renaissance or car crash?

Postby Flying Tiger Comics » Fri Sep 02, 2016 11:59 pm

I wonder what updated version of the Happiness Patrol they will assay? I'm sure there will be one.

I also tip there will be a "more Whedon than Whedon" episode as a weird farewell from Moffat to all those who cannot see his obvious and enduring greatness as a producer.
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Re: Doctor Who 2017: renaissance or car crash?

Postby Bowtiesarecool » Sat Sep 03, 2016 5:41 pm

bobmcpherson wrote:I was at a car dealership the other day wearing my DOCTOR WHO t shirt and one of the salesmen turned out to be a fan. His son is too. We both agreed that the show has become god awful lately(We both shook our heads sadly over Missy, KILL THE MOON and IN THE FOREST OF THE NIGHT) but I mentioned BIG FINISH and he was very interested since it allowed him to re-experience CLASSIC WHO since the new stinks.

So it had a happy ending.

And I got a new car to boot.

:D


Did you HAVE A NICE DAY?

:mrgreen:
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Re: Doctor Who 2017: renaissance or car crash?

Postby bobmcpherson » Sat Sep 03, 2016 6:17 pm

Bowtiesarecool wrote:
bobmcpherson wrote:I was at a car dealership the other day wearing my DOCTOR WHO t shirt and one of the salesmen turned out to be a fan. His son is too. We both agreed that the show has become god awful lately(We both shook our heads sadly over Missy, KILL THE MOON and IN THE FOREST OF THE NIGHT) but I mentioned BIG FINISH and he was very interested since it allowed him to re-experience CLASSIC WHO since the new stinks.

So it had a happy ending.

And I got a new car to boot.

:D


Did you HAVE A NICE DAY?

:mrgreen:


Not a bad one at all. The dealership also had a free coffee machine and I was able to get some research done(on a Manhattan murderer from the 1870s) while I waited for the paperwork to come through......
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Re: Doctor Who 2017: renaissance or car crash?

Postby Bowtiesarecool » Sat Sep 03, 2016 6:29 pm

bobmcpherson wrote:
Bowtiesarecool wrote:
bobmcpherson wrote:I was at a car dealership the other day wearing my DOCTOR WHO t shirt and one of the salesmen turned out to be a fan. His son is too. We both agreed that the show has become god awful lately(We both shook our heads sadly over Missy, KILL THE MOON and IN THE FOREST OF THE NIGHT) but I mentioned BIG FINISH and he was very interested since it allowed him to re-experience CLASSIC WHO since the new stinks.

So it had a happy ending.

And I got a new car to boot.

:D


Did you HAVE A NICE DAY?

:mrgreen:


Not a bad one at all. The dealership also had a free coffee machine and I was able to get some research done(on a Manhattan murderer from the 1870s) while I waited for the paperwork to come through......


Didn't see any film cans while you were there, did you?

I've always wanted to watch Episode 7 of Evil of the Daleks. :(
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Re: Doctor Who 2017: renaissance or car crash?

Postby LizR » Sun Sep 04, 2016 12:08 am

Bowtiesarecool wrote:I've always wanted to watch Episode 7 of Evil of the Daleks. :(

I've seen it, its rubbish.
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Re: Doctor Who 2017: renaissance or car crash?

Postby Flying Tiger Comics » Tue Sep 06, 2016 1:09 am

I've come to think that what is missing from current Who, and which was present in the 2006-2008 era, building up in fact to 2008-2009, is the zeitgeist.

For whatever reason Who caught the crest of a wave, and played into it brilliantly. Current Who has almost deliberately gone out of its way to eschew geek chic, nerd cool and the general zeitgeist. It's become culturally tone deaf to the point that one can plot its deliberate contrarianism as the yardstick for the opposite of public opinion.

I don't think any communications medium can support an unpopular megaphone agenda. It goes against the principles of communications and it ends up amplifying not the message being forced on the audience but the critics. Fundamentally, this is because the agenda wheelbarrow is boring. It's obviously a strain to shoehorn it in to begin with and it becomes a chore to watch.

An example used here quite often is the deaf person in the future. It really was a clunker. And there are so many similar analogous but "futuristic" or more creative ways to do the same thing - even a future where everyone's born with inbuilt wifi except a few rare "cripples". Anything.

Likewise casting a trans woman. The whole point for trans girls is usually SRS and being accepted as their "real" sex ie female. So why on Earth turn it into a circus? Odd.
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Re: Doctor Who 2017: renaissance or car crash?

Postby bobmcpherson » Tue Sep 06, 2016 4:32 pm

[quote="Flying Tiger Comics"]
I don't think any communications medium can support an unpopular megaphone agenda. It goes against the principles of communications and it ends up amplifying not the message being forced on the audience but the critics. Fundamentally, this is because the agenda wheelbarrow is boring. It's obviously a strain to shoehorn it in to begin with and it becomes a chore to watch.)

This is a very valid point. The MAIN problem with watching many---though not all----movies made under Communist Russia is the suffocating propaganda. Not only is it usually of the most vile evil kind but it suffocates the film...never allowing it to come alive.

NUWHO first under Davies' last two seasons and then under Moffat's last two seasons beside pushing the most appalling evil rubbish was just dead dramatically. Once you realized for example that Davies was an anti-Christian bigot, you knew the second he peddled up on his bicycle who the killer would be in that Agatha Christie story.

Something should not be work to watch. You should not watch something because of some loyalty to THE PARTY but rather than because you want to.

You should not praise something to the skies because of "social justice" but rather upon its quality or lack there of...

In the late 70s Hollywood produced one propaganda film after another that was dutifully buried with Oscars but who can honestly say they enjoyed JULIA or REDS or THE KILLING FIELDS? Who watches them today for pleasure??

THAT is a major difference between Classic Who and NUWHO. People watch the former for pleasure. People watch the later FOR THE CAUSE.

Another thing...I have noticed that unlike classic Who which I have strong memories of even stories I have not seen in years, NUWHO does not linger in my mind thus I do not comment on most stories currently because dammit they just do not linger........


I also suspect that NUWHO was primarily inspired and a rip off of Harry Potter---which is a systemic flaw right there for a Sci Fic show...
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Re: Doctor Who 2017: renaissance or car crash?

Postby iank » Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:53 am

Davies Who was more ripping/riffing off Buffy (badly) than anything else. I don't really see any kind of connection at all to Potter until around 2010.
(Doctor Who) has been hijacked and redefined as a lucrative modern franchise. They've literally taken a square peg and painfully made it fit a round hole by taking enormous liberties with much of its fundamental essence. There's no turning back now.

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Re: Doctor Who 2017: renaissance or car crash?

Postby Joseph » Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:51 am

iank wrote:Davies Who was more ripping/riffing off Buffy (badly) than anything else. I don't really see any kind of connection at all to Potter until around 2010.


Buffy and Xena and Charmed and Smallville and all of these 90's/00's American fantasy series.

I am a big fan of all those shows but I am not sure they were the right blue print for a modern DW as they are kind of the opposite of Classic Who in many ways.

Characters like Xena and Angel who the 9th and 10th Doctor were completely inspired by are more emo, romantic, tortured characters. The Doctor should be a more cold, Holmseian, alien character

Still I don't think that was RTD era Who's biggest problem. IMO its biggest problem was that it was ashamed of being DW.
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Re: Doctor Who 2017: renaissance or car crash?

Postby Flying Tiger Comics » Wed Sep 07, 2016 12:38 pm

"Ashamed of being Doctor Who" has some truth to it. There are various fan-written critiques (in various fan published books) making that same point, that the 2005 show was going to huge lengths to get a teenage girl and general family audience and wanted to totally erase and suppress elements of the original show that they thought would be massive turnoffs.

To an extent they were correct to do that, but doing it wholesale to the point that the central character becomes unrecognisable is going too far. And then when subsequent Doctors have sometimes tried to bring the classic feel back we can see the editorial interference (in the dialogue they're given for example) as cutting directly across what would be the classical Who. The Holmesian model of Doctor Who is OUT and the hip shallow catchphrase version is IN IN IN!

Which has always made Capaldi's denunciation of the catchphrase bow tie fez shorthand version of the character hilariously ironic and completely hollow when he then buys into it all wholesale with his cringe inducing flavour - guitar, sonic sunglasses and all.

To better days in 2018.
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Re: Doctor Who 2017: renaissance or car crash?

Postby Mike Nuttall » Tue Sep 13, 2016 12:56 am

Flying Tiger Comics wrote:"Ashamed of being Doctor Who" has some truth to it. There are various fan-written critiques (in various fan published books) making that same point, that the 2005 show was going to huge lengths to get a teenage girl and general family audience and wanted to totally erase and suppress elements of the original show that they thought would be massive turnoffs.

To an extent they were correct to do that, but doing it wholesale to the point that the central character becomes unrecognisable is going too far. And then when subsequent Doctors have sometimes tried to bring the classic feel back we can see the editorial interference (in the dialogue they're given for example) as cutting directly across what would be the classical Who. The Holmesian model of Doctor Who is OUT and the hip shallow catchphrase version is IN IN IN!

Which has always made Capaldi's denunciation of the catchphrase bow tie fez shorthand version of the character hilariously ironic and completely hollow when he then buys into it all wholesale with his cringe inducing flavour - guitar, sonic sunglasses and all.

To better days in 2018.


I'd like to see the programme given a complete reboot. Ditch all the new series continuity and go back to the Doctor travelling through time and space, seemingly unable to control his ship and just having adventures. I'd also like to see him just meet his travelling companions instead of them having some season long story arc plot point that stops any kind of character development dead in its tracks because there's a reveal coming at the end of the penultimate episode.

The trouble with Capaldi's Doctor is that in his first series he was written as angry and serious. Then Moffat decided he was too angry and serious so started writing him as Matt Smith lite.
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Re: Doctor Who 2017: renaissance or car crash?

Postby iank » Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:40 am

And the thing is, the "angry and serious" thing didn't work as there was nothing behind it, all this "Am I a good man?" angsting was just a repeat of Eccleston/Tennant, except with no reason at all since he now knew he saved Gallifrey rather than destroyed it, so what the hell was he angsting and being filled with such self-doubt over? At least the 9/10 Doctor stuff had a reason for it, as tedious as it became. The 12th's angst just seemed utterly hollow.
(Doctor Who) has been hijacked and redefined as a lucrative modern franchise. They've literally taken a square peg and painfully made it fit a round hole by taking enormous liberties with much of its fundamental essence. There's no turning back now.

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Re: Doctor Who 2017: renaissance or car crash?

Postby LizR » Tue Sep 13, 2016 2:28 am

Mike Nuttall wrote:I'd like to see the programme given a complete reboot. Ditch all the new series continuity and go back to the Doctor travelling through time and space, seemingly unable to control his ship and just having adventures. I'd also like to see him just meet his travelling companions instead of them having some season long story arc plot point that stops any kind of character development dead in its tracks because there's a reveal coming at the end of the penultimate episode.

Seconded. Can you persuade Theresa May to have a referendum on that?
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Re: Doctor Who 2017: renaissance or car crash?

Postby Chairman of the Voord » Tue Sep 13, 2016 2:21 pm

Flying Tiger Comics wrote:When it returns, will the ratings bounce back? Will there be the hoped-for turnaround in popularity? Will the show recapture the zeitgeist?


So, when did you stop beating your wife?
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Re: Doctor Who 2017: renaissance or car crash?

Postby Flying Tiger Comics » Wed Sep 14, 2016 3:59 am

Chairman of the Voord wrote:
Flying Tiger Comics wrote:When it returns, will the ratings bounce back? Will there be the hoped-for turnaround in popularity? Will the show recapture the zeitgeist?


So, when did you stop beating your wife?



What wife?


Harder than it looks isn't it?

I thought you might be into double entendres, so I gave you one.
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Re: Doctor Who 2017: renaissance or car crash?

Postby johnshoo » Wed Oct 19, 2016 3:38 pm

Joseph wrote:
iank wrote:Davies Who was more ripping/riffing off Buffy (badly) than anything else. I don't really see any kind of connection at all to Potter until around 2010.


Buffy and Xena and Charmed and Smallville and all of these 90's/00's American fantasy series.

I am a big fan of all those shows but I am not sure they were the right blue print for a modern DW as they are kind of the opposite of Classic Who in many ways.


I agree. I understand why RTD chose to go that direction, but I feel it didn't work at least as often as it worked. It's a big factor as to why I think new Who is very uneven in quality.

Characters like Xena and Angel who the 9th and 10th Doctor were completely inspired by are more emo, romantic, tortured characters. The Doctor should be a more cold, Holmseian, alien character


IMO, Cumberbatch's Sherlock acts more like my picture of a modern Doctor than most of the modern Doctors.

I do like Capaldi and I think he can be great (his performance in Heaven Sent, for example), but he hasn't had an abundance of good material to work with.

Still I don't think that was RTD era Who's biggest problem. IMO its biggest problem was that it was ashamed of being DW.


I think if it was ashamed of anything, it was ashamed of the idea a lot of the public had of old Who - cheap looking, wobbly sets, crap monsters, hammy acting, serials that were padded with boring corridor chases. Unfortunately, the makers of new Who got so caught up in updating the aesthetic that they didn't focus on the things that were good about classic who (most of the time) - exploring interesting sci-fi ideas and creating suspense and atmosphere.

New Who has a completely different tone from much of the classic series. Moffat's era in particular often tries to go for this sci-fantasy feel when IMO, Doctor Who is always at its best (even in the modern era) when it goes for sci-fi/horror.
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