Moffat reveals how he will destroy DOCTOR WHO

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Re: Moffat reveals how he will destroy DOCTOR WHO

Postby shuzbot » Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:19 am

koschei kriegsleiter wrote:I've personally never liked the "but it's all fiction" attitude. Using that logic, could dragons have appeared in The Office? Would it make a difference if zombies had checked into Fawlty Towers? Could a Jonathan Creek solution be given as "It was a witch casting her spells"?


Only if you ignore genres and there is nothing in the SF genre that says 'no blacks'. Your hyperbolising of the argument does you no favours. Black people, however unlikely, in ancient England is a possibility. Dragons in the Office is hardly an equivalent.
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Re: Moffat reveals how he will destroy DOCTOR WHO

Postby koschei kriegsleiter » Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:44 am

shuzbot wrote:
koschei kriegsleiter wrote:I've personally never liked the "but it's all fiction" attitude. Using that logic, could dragons have appeared in The Office? Would it make a difference if zombies had checked into Fawlty Towers? Could a Jonathan Creek solution be given as "It was a witch casting her spells"?


Only if you ignore genres and there is nothing in the SF genre that says 'no blacks'. Your hyperbolising of the argument does you no favours. Black people, however unlikely, in ancient England is a possibility. Dragons in the Office is hardly an equivalent.

Well, it's something that wasn't there. Like a tank in the Middle Ages. And I think too many people wrongly confuse/conflate Science Fiction and Fantasy. Science Fiction needs to be rooted in reality. You create fiction, but everything needs to adhere to the laws of possibility and plausibility.

It's easy to say "There are Black people. Therefore they could have been Black people in Ancient Britain". Well, could there have been Australian Aborigines in Ancient Britain? Could there have been kangaroos in Ancient Britain? How about polar bears? In fact, of those, the only one with any level of probability is the bears.

People seem to think that there's some sort of racism at work here. But the simple facts are that there weren't Black people in Britain in Roman times. In fact, when Black people first arrived in Britain, in Tudor times, they were treated in a disgusting manner by the locals. And indeed the slave trade carried on for hundreds more years. Even in more recent times we've had the "Rivers of Blood" types.

That's not hyperbolising. It's fact. So that goes back to my earlier comment about whether you want historical reality, or whether you're going with "But it's all fiction!" In which case 'dragons in The Office' isn't that different at all. because by shattering historical reality, you have stepped fully outside the realms of SF and into Fantasy.
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Re: Moffat reveals how he will destroy DOCTOR WHO

Postby cyberlad » Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:46 am

Except there is evidence there were black people in Roman Britain, maybe not that common, but there were there, The Roman Empire stretched from the Scottish border to North Africa.
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Re: Moffat reveals how he will destroy DOCTOR WHO

Postby LizR » Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:13 am

In general, I agree with KK 100%. If there were in fact black people in Roman Britain then s/he's possibly got that particular point wrong, but the general principle is correct. And in fact the new Dr Who has strayed very far into breaking its own rules and hence making it harder to take it seriously as fiction.

(By the way, the Doctor appears to have gained the ability to wipe people's memories at some point - when was this? Because it's yet another superpower on top of encyclopaedic knowledge of everything in the universe, the ability to do whatever the plot needs using a screwdriver, the ability to make aliens go away by shouting at them, etc).
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Re: Moffat reveals how he will destroy DOCTOR WHO

Postby Servorobot » Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:05 pm

cyberlad wrote:Except there is evidence there were black people in Roman Britain, maybe not that common, but there were there, The Roman Empire stretched from the Scottish border to North Africa.


Slaves weren't they? Captured from North Africa, that type of thing.

They weren't just Russell Crowe types you know (thankfully).

And dragons in the Office? Bring it on I say. It may get me to watch either version.

There's also the playing around with reality card as well, a favourite Sci-Fi motif.

Should I not watch SS-GB because it's about the Nazis winning the war and everyone knows the Nazis didn't win the war.
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Re: Moffat reveals how he will destroy DOCTOR WHO

Postby James-S » Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:08 pm

koschei kriegsleiter wrote:That's not hyperbolising. It's fact. So that goes back to my earlier comment about whether you want historical reality, or whether you're going with "But it's all fiction!" In which case 'dragons in The Office' isn't that different at all. because by shattering historical reality, you have stepped fully outside the realms of SF and into Fantasy.


For what it's worth, great post KK (and not just because I happen to agree with it!). It's a shame a level of maturity and rationality can't be applied to this truly specious debate of how accurate recreated historical periods should/have to be, if only to nullify nonsensical accusations/insinuations of 'racism' whenever rigorously high standards are maintained.

Another, recent-ish example/variation of the deceitful "but it's all fiction!" ploy you allude to would be the videogame 'Battlefield 1' (set in WW1) that attracted minor 'controversy' upon release from an agenda-driven gaggle bitterly complaining that they couldn't immerse themselves in the multiplayer component of the game as it had cruelly omitted the option to play as female WW1 soldiers!

When the inevitable counter-arguments ensued explaining that it wouldn't be historically accurate to include female soldiers (the Russian Women's Death Battalion and women unofficially disguising themselves as men to fight excepted) they were met with crap like 'well the fighter planes in the game don't handle 100% realistically so it doesn't matter'!

Naturally if that could ever be considered a legitimate argument for abandoning all pretences of historical accuracy then why 'effing bother meticulously researching WW1 era technology and weapons in the first place when one could just have soldiers of the early 20th century firing laser guns, teleporting and flying around in jet fighters, etc - historical accuracy be damned?!

As I say - and as with the representation of history in Doctor Who, a contemptibly disingenuous, inherently flawed 'argument' propagated by agenda-driven sh^t-stirrers addicted to faux outrage. For obvious reasons. :(
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Re: Moffat reveals how he will destroy DOCTOR WHO

Postby shuzbot » Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:16 pm

koschei kriegsleiter wrote:
shuzbot wrote:
koschei kriegsleiter wrote:I've personally never liked the "but it's all fiction" attitude. Using that logic, could dragons have appeared in The Office? Would it make a difference if zombies had checked into Fawlty Towers? Could a Jonathan Creek solution be given as "It was a witch casting her spells"?


Only if you ignore genres and there is nothing in the SF genre that says 'no blacks'. Your hyperbolising of the argument does you no favours. Black people, however unlikely, in ancient England is a possibility. Dragons in the Office is hardly an equivalent.

Well, it's something that wasn't there. Like a tank in the Middle Ages. And I think too many people wrongly confuse/conflate Science Fiction and Fantasy. Science Fiction needs to be rooted in reality. You create fiction, but everything needs to adhere to the laws of possibility and plausibility.

It's easy to say "There are Black people. Therefore they could have been Black people in Ancient Britain". Well, could there have been Australian Aborigines in Ancient Britain? Could there have been kangaroos in Ancient Britain? How about polar bears? In fact, of those, the only one with any level of probability is the bears.


There is no evidence of Australian Aborigines in Ancient Britain. There is some of Black people in Roman Britain, You may not be convinced by it but that's different.

People seem to think that there's some sort of racism at work here.
I don't believe I said that

But the simple facts are that there weren't Black people in Britain in Roman times.
That's a very one-sided argument.

That's not hyperbolising. It's fact. So that goes back to my earlier comment about whether you want historical reality, or whether you're going with "But it's all fiction!" In which case 'dragons in The Office' isn't that different at all. because by shattering historical reality, you have stepped fully outside the realms of SF and into Fantasy.


Utter nonsense. You can't equate mythical creatures and black people. Well, you can but it's just ridiculous. Gladiator was an award-winning film and fine entertainment but its historical accuracy is lacking. If I was going to apply your tactic of straw manning then I would suggest that we track down every copy and burn it or at least withdraw all the awards it one till it is remade in the strictest historically accurate manner - whatever that may be. In fact, why stop there?
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Re: Moffat reveals how he will destroy DOCTOR WHO

Postby cyberlad » Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:18 pm

LizR wrote:In general, I agree with KK 100%. If there were in fact black people in Roman Britain then s/he's possibly got that particular point wrong, but the general principle is correct. And in fact the new Dr Who has strayed very far into breaking its own rules and hence making it harder to take it seriously as fiction.

(By the way, the Doctor appears to have gained the ability to wipe people's memories at some point - when was this? Because it's yet another superpower on top of encyclopaedic knowledge of everything in the universe, the ability to do whatever the plot needs using a screwdriver, the ability to make aliens go away by shouting at them, etc).


Yeah they were actually and since h has demonstrated powers of hypnotism on various occasions it is not inconceivable that he could alter people's memories. I find it funny that people on here think aliens in history is fine, but a black man in Regency London that's wrong it a sign of PC gone mad et cetera et cetera

For further evidence of Black people in Roman Britain

http://www.blackpresence.co.uk/black-romans/
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Re: Moffat reveals how he will destroy DOCTOR WHO

Postby koschei kriegsleiter » Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:19 pm

shuzbot wrote:
koschei kriegsleiter wrote:
shuzbot wrote:
koschei kriegsleiter wrote:I've personally never liked the "but it's all fiction" attitude. Using that logic, could dragons have appeared in The Office? Would it make a difference if zombies had checked into Fawlty Towers? Could a Jonathan Creek solution be given as "It was a witch casting her spells"?


Only if you ignore genres and there is nothing in the SF genre that says 'no blacks'. Your hyperbolising of the argument does you no favours. Black people, however unlikely, in ancient England is a possibility. Dragons in the Office is hardly an equivalent.

Well, it's something that wasn't there. Like a tank in the Middle Ages. And I think too many people wrongly confuse/conflate Science Fiction and Fantasy. Science Fiction needs to be rooted in reality. You create fiction, but everything needs to adhere to the laws of possibility and plausibility.

It's easy to say "There are Black people. Therefore they could have been Black people in Ancient Britain". Well, could there have been Australian Aborigines in Ancient Britain? Could there have been kangaroos in Ancient Britain? How about polar bears? In fact, of those, the only one with any level of probability is the bears.


There is no evidence of Australian Aborigines in Ancient Britain. There is some of Black people in Roman Britain, You may not be convinced by it but that's different.

Well I'm far from alone on that. What evidence proves that there were? Nothing really. References to 'Black' people, but as stated that didn't mean what we take it to mean today. There are still phrases such as "as Black as a Turk"
existing into the 20th century. And of course, the tired argument of equating "African" with "Black". North Africans are not, and never were, "Black" in the modern meaning of the term.

As far as finding Black people buried in Britain, how do we know when? Is it a shock that in a racist society where slavery was legal, that Black(in the modern sense) people may have been laid to rest in more primitive burials? Doesn't make them "ancient" though any more than people living in homes carved out of rock in the present day are "ancient".
People seem to think that there's some sort of racism at work here.
I don't believe I said that [/quote]
I never said it was you. But there are some people, including on PM, that have said that.

But the simple facts are that there weren't Black people in Britain in Roman times.
That's a very one-sided argument.

I think of it more as a simple statement of fact. It does interest me why some people are so worked up over needing to believe that there were "Black people in Roman Britain". It has come across more as a battle cry than an assertion of historical reality.

That's not hyperbolising. It's fact. So that goes back to my earlier comment about whether you want historical reality, or whether you're going with "But it's all fiction!" In which case 'dragons in The Office' isn't that different at all. because by shattering historical reality, you have stepped fully outside the realms of SF and into Fantasy.


Utter nonsense. You can't equate mythical creatures and black people. Well, you can but it's just ridiculous. Gladiator was an award-winning film and fine entertainment but its historical accuracy is lacking. If I was going to apply your tactic of straw manning then I would suggest that we track down every copy and burn it or at least withdraw all the awards it one till it is remade in the strictest historically accurate manner - whatever that may be. In fact, why stop there?
[/quote]
I never said that mythical creatures and Black people are equivalent in the way that you seem to believe I said that neither existed in Britain in Roman times. And that placing "Black people in Roman Britain" is historically inaccurate, thus removing the "SF" element. And that the "justification" of "It's all fiction.! What does it matter?" makes everything "Fantasy".

When did I suggest tracking down every copy of anything and burning it? Who is straw-manning now? Yes, Gladiator is historically inaccurate(and then some), but it won awards for its acting, writing etc., NOT because it was supposed to be a realistic portrayal of a gladiator. We can still enjoy something that is historically inaccurate. but we need tor recognise that it is historically inaccurate. I'm not sure what your point about Gladiator even really was. I said I would prefer the Doctor's trips into Earth history to be an accurate portrayal of what Earth history was really like, rather than some "idealised" fantasy version of history. So you're saying that I want to destroy every copy of Gladiator? Not at all.
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Re: Moffat reveals how he will destroy DOCTOR WHO

Postby koschei kriegsleiter » Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:21 pm

cyberlad wrote:
LizR wrote:In general, I agree with KK 100%. If there were in fact black people in Roman Britain then s/he's possibly got that particular point wrong, but the general principle is correct. And in fact the new Dr Who has strayed very far into breaking its own rules and hence making it harder to take it seriously as fiction.

(By the way, the Doctor appears to have gained the ability to wipe people's memories at some point - when was this? Because it's yet another superpower on top of encyclopaedic knowledge of everything in the universe, the ability to do whatever the plot needs using a screwdriver, the ability to make aliens go away by shouting at them, etc).


Yeah they were actually and since h has demonstrated powers of hypnotism on various occasions it is not inconceivable that he could alter people's memories. I find it funny that people on here think aliens in history is fine, but a black man in Regency London that's wrong it a sign of PC gone mad et cetera et cetera

For further evidence of Black people in Roman Britain

http://www.blackpresence.co.uk/black-romans/

The difference though is that aliens aren't supposed to be there, and someone will point that out.

And again that link talks about NORTH Africans in Britain. NORTH Africans., ie. Mediterranean people.
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Re: Moffat reveals how he will destroy DOCTOR WHO

Postby cyberlad » Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:23 am

The part of North Africa the article highlights is Mauritania which does have population of black people, you also seem to ignore natiosn like Sudan and Ethiopia both of which are part of North Africa.

When did I suggest tracking down every copy of anything and burning it? Who is straw-manning now? Yes, Gladiator is historically inaccurate(and then some), but it won awards for its acting, writing etc., NOT because it was supposed to be a realistic portrayal of a gladiator. We can still enjoy something that is historically inaccurate. but we need tor recognise that it is historically inaccurate. I'm not sure what your point about Gladiator even really was. I said I would prefer the Doctor's trips into Earth history to be an accurate portrayal of what Earth history was really like, rather than some "idealised" fantasy version of history. So you're saying that I want to destroy every copy of Gladiator? Not at all.
]

So it's ok for Gladiator to be inaccurate, but not Doctor Who, this is isn't about historical inaccuracy, this is about you disliking Steven Moffatt.
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Re: Moffat reveals how he will destroy DOCTOR WHO

Postby koschei kriegsleiter » Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:28 am

cyberlad wrote:The part of North Africa the article highlights is Mauritania which does have population of black people, you also seem to ignore natiosn like Sudan and Ethiopia both of which are part of North Africa.

When did I suggest tracking down every copy of anything and burning it? Who is straw-manning now? Yes, Gladiator is historically inaccurate(and then some), but it won awards for its acting, writing etc., NOT because it was supposed to be a realistic portrayal of a gladiator. We can still enjoy something that is historically inaccurate. but we need tor recognise that it is historically inaccurate. I'm not sure what your point about Gladiator even really was. I said I would prefer the Doctor's trips into Earth history to be an accurate portrayal of what Earth history was really like, rather than some "idealised" fantasy version of history. So you're saying that I want to destroy every copy of Gladiator? Not at all.
]

So it's ok for Gladiator to be inaccurate, but not Doctor Who, this is isn't about historical inaccuracy, this is about you disliking Steven Moffatt.

Mauritania isn't actually North Africa The historic Roman province of Mauretania was in North Africa, but the two are two different territories. And the very names 'Sudan' and 'Ethiopia' place them outside North Africa.

I also never said anything about "being ok" or "hating". Doctor Who originally tried to be educational as well as entertaining. I realise that that was 50 years ago, and I also know that Marco Polo for all its entertainment is historically inaccurate.

However, even with the 'SF historical', I will have no problem saying that I want the history that the Doctor materialises in to be as accurate as possible. And the moment that the Doctor lands in a Tudor England where Black people are treated like everyone else(rather than the extreme racism that there actually was), there's an immediate disconnect, and it's going to be a less impressive story.

And yes, I understand very well why Moffat wants to have Black people in historical Britain. But I don't agree with it.

And I always thought Gladiator was rubbish. Not just because of the historical inaccuracy.
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Re: Moffat reveals how he will destroy DOCTOR WHO

Postby cyberlad » Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:05 pm

And the moment that the Doctor lands in a Tudor England where Black people are treated like everyone else(rather than the extreme racism that there actually was), there's an immediate disconnect, and it's going to be a less impressive story.


Ah of course in the Shakespeare Code, black people should have been lynched from the nearest post, Martha should have been spat at and sold into slavery, and everyone should have been using the n word. As someone on another forum I frequent put it

I think this is all a bit like the Dambusters dog. Any time a remake of that film is proposed, there are people who will insist that the dog has to be called N*gg*r. Set the bloody thing on the moon for all they care, but the dog has to have that name. Which suggests to me that they're not so much concerned about historical accuracy as aroused by the prospect of watching a white man shout "Heel, n*gg*r, get down n*gg*r!". See also cutting the "Wogs" line from Fawlty Towers, or "Faggot" from Fairytale of New York. They have no idea about the context those words were used in (the major in FT is there to be laughed at, not with; FONY depicts an abusive relationship between two alcoholics), they just get a visceral thrill out of using/hearing those words they think the pee cees have stopped them yelling at people.


I don't know if you have any qualifications in history, but I do and one of the things I learnt was to research, unlike you I have actually researched and presented evidence for my arguments, whereas all you have done is present hyperbole.

And yes, I understand very well why Moffat wants to have Black people in historical Britain. But I don't agree with it.


Yeah expect Moffatt didn't actually say what Breitbart claimed he said.
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Re: Moffat reveals how he will destroy DOCTOR WHO

Postby cyberlad » Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:09 pm

Oh and I ain't taking any lectures from a f*****g holocaust denier.
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Re: Moffat reveals how he will destroy DOCTOR WHO

Postby koschei kriegsleiter » Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:13 pm

cyberlad wrote:
And the moment that the Doctor lands in a Tudor England where Black people are treated like everyone else(rather than the extreme racism that there actually was), there's an immediate disconnect, and it's going to be a less impressive story.


Ah of course in the Shakespeare Code, black people should have been lynched from the nearest post, Martha should have been spat at and sold into slavery, and everyone should have been using the n word. As someone on another forum I frequent put it

When did I say that? I'm saying it's inaccurate. The sad reality is that someone like Martha would have been spat at and insulted. The idealised version may be 'better', but it' also denies a part of history.

I think this is all a bit like the Dambusters dog. Any time a remake of that film is proposed, there are people who will insist that the dog has to be called N*gg*r. Set the bloody thing on the moon for all they care, but the dog has to have that name. Which suggests to me that they're not so much concerned about historical accuracy as aroused by the prospect of watching a white man shout "Heel, n*gg*r, get down n*gg*r!". See also cutting the "Wogs" line from Fawlty Towers, or "Faggot" from Fairytale of New York. They have no idea about the context those words were used in (the major in FT is there to be laughed at, not with; FONY depicts an abusive relationship between two alcoholics), they just get a visceral thrill out of using/hearing those words they think the pee cees have stopped them yelling at people.


I don't know if you have any qualifications in history, but I do and one of the things I learnt was to research, unlike you I have actually researched and presented evidence for my arguments, whereas all you have done is present hyperbole.

What evidence? Talking about the dog in The Dambusters?

And yes, I understand very well why Moffat wants to have Black people in historical Britain. But I don't agree with it.


Yeah expect Moffatt didn't actually say what Breitbart claimed he said.
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Re: Moffat reveals how he will destroy DOCTOR WHO

Postby cyberlad » Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:14 pm

Why don't you read the OP, holocaust denier.
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Re: Moffat reveals how he will destroy DOCTOR WHO

Postby koschei kriegsleiter » Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:15 pm

cyberlad wrote:Oh and I ain't taking any lectures from a f*****g holocaust denier.

Is that supposed to upset me? Sadly, for you, I learned long ago that people trying to bully you by calling you names are only showing their own insecurities and flaws.

Any other names you want to sling at me? Well keep going, chief, keep going.
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Re: Moffat reveals how he will destroy DOCTOR WHO

Postby cyberlad » Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:19 pm

No It's what you are, you outed yourself as one. Oh and I've complained to the mods.
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Re: Moffat reveals how he will destroy DOCTOR WHO

Postby koschei kriegsleiter » Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:21 pm

cyberlad wrote:No It's what you are, you outed yourself as one. Oh and I've complained to the mods.

I'm sure the mods have read it. It was a discussion between shuzbot and me.

I'm sure you'll be alarmed to discover that I also don't believe that the Bible is real history.

And Merlin the Magician never actually existed either.

Get your stake, kindling and matches ready.....
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Re: Moffat reveals how he will destroy DOCTOR WHO

Postby The Ginger Cat » Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:26 pm

Thread's locked and shall remain so, after reading back on some the posts herein.
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