Mondasian Cybermen series finale!

For discussion of series 10 of Doctor Who starring Peter Capaldi

Re: Mondasian Cybermen series finale!

Postby koschei kriegsleiter » Sun Mar 12, 2017 12:38 pm

Right. Don't bother responding to anything more that I say, JMW, as I shan't be reading it.

And again, your "it's all fantasy!" mentality is what's ruined Doctor Who for many. As an example, we KNOW that there were never any sightings of dinosaurs rampaging through Victorian London. Thus, even though Doctor Who is fiction, there should NOT be dinosaurs rampaging through Victorian London, in plain sight of EVERYONE, in Doctor Who either.

Yes, "lizard people don't exist", but IF lizard people DID exist, what do the laws of biology, evolution etc. tell us they would be more or less like? Most certainly NOT Vastra. So, even though Doctor Who is fiction, IF any lizard people who fully evolved on Earth, and are 100% indigenous to this planet actually did exist, then these lizard people should look what lizard would look like IF they DID actually exist.

The natural conclusion of your reasoning is the likes of Death in Heaven, the worst episode in the entire 54 year history of the show.

The natural conclusion of what I seem to be hitting my head against the wall trying to explain to you is the likes of The Daleks, The Time Meddler, (Doctor Who And) The Silurians etc.In other words the serials that made the Classic series CLASSIC.

And in fact it was your "it's all fantasy!" approach in the McCoy era that helped kill off the original series.

I mean, seriously, we all know that Happy Valley is 100% fiction, but does that give the green light to have Catherine trying to keep law and order in the face of flying robots and alien invasions? Why not? After all, none of those HV characters actually exist to begin with!

Or, I'm guessing you wouldn't have minded if actual wizards and sorcerers had checked into Fawlty Towers. After, all the hotel doesn't really exist, and think of the comedic potential of Basil struggling to make sense of a magician!! :floorroll:
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Re: Mondasian Cybermen series finale!

Postby -JMW- » Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:22 pm

koschei kriegsleiter wrote:Right. Don't bother responding to anything more that I say, JMW, as I shan't be reading it.

And again, your "it's all fantasy!" mentality is what's ruined Doctor Who for many. As an example, we KNOW that there were never any sightings of dinosaurs rampaging through Victorian London. Thus, even though Doctor Who is fiction, there should NOT be dinosaurs rampaging through Victorian London, in plain sight of EVERYONE, in Doctor Who either.

Yes, "lizard people don't exist", but IF lizard people DID exist, what do the laws of biology, evolution etc. tell us they would be more or less like? Most certainly NOT Vastra. So, even though Doctor Who is fiction, IF any lizard people who fully evolved on Earth, and are 100% indigenous to this planet actually did exist, then these lizard people should look what lizard would look like IF they DID actually exist.

The natural conclusion of your reasoning is the likes of Death in Heaven, the worst episode in the entire 54 year history of the show.

The natural conclusion of what I seem to be hitting my head against the wall trying to explain to you is the likes of The Daleks, The Time Meddler, (Doctor Who And) The Silurians etc.In other words the serials that made the Classic series CLASSIC.

And in fact it was your "it's all fantasy!" approach in the McCoy era that helped kill off the original series.

I mean, seriously, we all know that Happy Valley is 100% fiction, but does that give the green light to have Catherine trying to keep law and order in the face of flying robots and alien invasions? Why not? After all, none of those HV characters actually exist to begin with!

Or, I'm guessing you wouldn't have minded if actual wizards and sorcerers had checked into Fawlty Towers. After, all the hotel doesn't really exist, and think of the comedic potential of Basil struggling to make sense of a magician!! :floorroll:

Ah, I see - you are confusing "fantasy" with "fiction".
Yes, in the broad sense of the word "Fawlty Towers" is both a "fiction" and a "Fantasy"...but genre-wise it is merely "fiction" with some "comedic-drama"...so, In the "reality" of "Fawlty Towers" it would make no sense to jump into the "fantasy" genre by including "wizards and sorcerers" as if they truly existed (rather than cos-play).

Now, Doctor Who is (and has been since Barbara and Ian stumbled inside a box apparently bigger on the inside) a fantasy series.
One might argue that, at that initial point it was merely "scientific" in nature, being that the "science" of a TARDIS might be achievable outside the scope of human knowledge/experience - but then one might argue that about all fantasy elements...including "lizard people".

"dinosaurs rampaging through Victorian London"
Well we have seen dinosaurs rampaging through seventies London (and apparently off-screen the world); we have also seen a twin-earth accompanied by cybermen back in 1986; Silurians and Sea-Devils living under the earth; Cybermen in London again via sewers; Autons destroying all in their path - twice!; more than version of the Atlantis tale; a "loch Ness Monster" very visibly rearing it's head; an Earth mission to Mars(!); Yeti taking over London and the Underground; War Machines running amok; Daleks in sixties school and surrounding streets...and on and on and on....
We also have Planet of Giants and The Mind Robber, giving license to expanded fantastical ideas...

- Doctor Who is, was and presumably always will be(?) ridiculous fun aimed primarily at the young. One can attempt to make some sense of it all I suppose, or even justify it as something that might actually occur if that helps. i prefer to accept that which is delivered (as I do not create the show) and take it on it's own merits. 8-)

"Death In Heaven"
Well yes, you might think that it's the worst Who adventure...but you are not in the majority.
And that is the problem - you seem to be attempting to posit your own lack of appreciation for the current incarnation as an intellectual fact that others should adhere to or be doomed to ignorance. That those who do appreciate the show in it's current form are somehow intellectually inferior. I'm here to tell you that you are in the minority - albeit a very, very, very vocal minority, which might encourage further misinformed bias on the part of those who "hate".

As to the McCoy era - it certainly wasn't to my taste (I tuned out), and I think it might have been alleviated somewhat with more relatable personas in place of the two leads. I think JN-T outstayed beyond his creative drive and drove away much of the grounding talent, but I can see that some effort went into providing something fresh...and to many younger viewers it seems to have hit a chord...I've seen a lot of positive reviews of that era. I wouldn't state that they were "wrong", just that the style wasn't to my taste...and maybe the frivolity determined the eventual fate of the show....and subsequent rise I suppose too.

Read my comments or don't - although why bother communicating on a social network (such as a forum) if you only want to converse with those you agree. Each to their own of course.
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Re: Mondasian Cybermen series finale!

Postby shuzbot » Sun Mar 12, 2017 6:02 pm

koschei kriegsleiter wrote:Yes, "lizard people don't exist"(though David Icke would say otherwise....), but Classic Who writers would start with.....

"IF lizard people DID exist, and they had evolved on Earth from bipedal lizards, what WOULD they look like?" Obviously the Classic Silurian appearance wasn't perfect, but it was something the budget, time restraints etc. of the day could do.

NU Who doesn't bother with what millions-of-years old lizards evolving on Earth, with Earth conditions, into an end result of bipedal, intelligent reptiles who can speak would realistically look like. No, no, no. Because "it's fantasy!", they just paint a woman's face green(although it looks like someone threw up on Neve McIntosh's face, and then put her in a "sexy" relationship with a human woman. And there's your Silurian! You want a realistic looking bipedal lizard? How about a dinosaur in Victorian London? After all, it's just fantasy!


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parietal_eye
Parietal eyes are also found in most lizards (but not teiids, dibamids, geckos, helodermatids and lanthanotids)), frogs and lampreys, as well as some species of fish, such as tuna and pelagic sharks, where it is visible as a light-sensitive spot on top of their head.

Whether something exists or not doesn't really matter. Unicorns are horses with horns on their heads. Present someone with a frog that has antlers and a fluffy tail (or a drawing of one) and try telling them it's a unicorn and they won't accept that as a unicorn. Does that mean Silurians shouldn't be reimagined? Well, they did do it the following season by creating the Sea Devils so why not? It's not the way I would choose to do it, though...
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Re: Mondasian Cybermen series finale!

Postby koschei kriegsleiter » Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:49 pm

shuzbot wrote:
koschei kriegsleiter wrote:Yes, "lizard people don't exist"(though David Icke would say otherwise....), but Classic Who writers would start with.....

"IF lizard people DID exist, and they had evolved on Earth from bipedal lizards, what WOULD they look like?" Obviously the Classic Silurian appearance wasn't perfect, but it was something the budget, time restraints etc. of the day could do.

NU Who doesn't bother with what millions-of-years old lizards evolving on Earth, with Earth conditions, into an end result of bipedal, intelligent reptiles who can speak would realistically look like. No, no, no. Because "it's fantasy!", they just paint a woman's face green(although it looks like someone threw up on Neve McIntosh's face, and then put her in a "sexy" relationship with a human woman. And there's your Silurian! You want a realistic looking bipedal lizard? How about a dinosaur in Victorian London? After all, it's just fantasy!


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parietal_eye
Parietal eyes are also found in most lizards (but not teiids, dibamids, geckos, helodermatids and lanthanotids)), frogs and lampreys, as well as some species of fish, such as tuna and pelagic sharks, where it is visible as a light-sensitive spot on top of their head.

Whether something exists or not doesn't really matter. Unicorns are horses with horns on their heads. Present someone with a frog that has antlers and a fluffy tail (or a drawing of one) and try telling them it's a unicorn and they won't accept that as a unicorn. Does that mean Silurians shouldn't be reimagined? Well, they did do it the following season by creating the Sea Devils so why not? It's not the way I would choose to do it, though...


Not sure what your point is here.

First the Silurians weren't "reimagined, by creating the Sea Devils". The one was obviously an inspiration for the other, but they're clearly two different species. And since the 'Sea Devils' were able to live in the ocean, it made sense to make them have various turtle-like features. The only problems were those string vests, and that in Warriors they actually call themselves 'Sea Devils', but neither is the fault of the people who created the original Sea Devils.

Secondly, unicorns. Yes they don't exist. But a horse with a horn could reasonably exist. After all things like antelope and deer can have horns. While, a frog can't have a fluffy tail.

AGAIN it comes down to approaching a Science Fiction as, well, Science Fiction. Saying 'This doesn't exist, therefore it can be ANYTHING!' is very much an attitude introduced by the Cartmel era, and makes a mockery of the show today.

Again, bipedal sentient lizards that resemble actual lizards(within the realms of make-up/costume design of the time) are good. Bipedal sentient lizards that have tits and sleep with humans are stupid. Actually, the latter COULD work, but not if they're Earth-evolved Silurians. And probably with a better writer.
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Re: Mondasian Cybermen series finale!

Postby shuzbot » Sun Mar 12, 2017 8:21 pm

koschei kriegsleiter wrote:Secondly, unicorns. Yes they don't exist. But a horse with a horn could reasonably exist. After all things like antelope and deer can have horns. While, a frog can't have a fluffy tail.


My point there is that people have a concrete idea of what a unicorn is and won't accept much deviation from that. Silurians have to remain lizards (and yes, I would prefer them without breasts) but apart from that, the concept is quite malleable other than personal opinion.
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Re: Mondasian Cybermen series finale!

Postby bobmcpherson » Sun Mar 12, 2017 8:34 pm

koschei kriegsleiter wrote:
-JMW- wrote:
Heccypoo wrote:As to the NuWho Silurians...

Maybe I would have liked them if their eye iris's had been done using contact lens to make them look reptilian...

That would have been a nice touch...though I suspect that those kinds of contact lenses aren't cheap and aren't pleasant to wear. I suppose a compromise might be to utilise contacts/cgi in one "underground" scene and explain that the Silurians have to use human looking eyepieces above ground for reason of chemical reaction or something.

I'm happy with them as they are though. - they are lizard people...and lizard people don't exist...who's to say whether this fantasy element would have lizard type eyes, breasts, walk on two legs...whatever :)

And that right there is probably even more of a disagreement many Classic fans have with Nu Who, than even the dreaded Stephen James Walker agenda.

Yes, "lizard people don't exist"(though David Icke would say otherwise....), but Classic Who writers would start with.....

"IF lizard people DID exist, and they had evolved on Earth from bipedal lizards, what WOULD they look like?" Obviously the Classic Silurian appearance wasn't perfect, but it was something the budget, time restraints etc. of the day could do.

NU Who doesn't bother with what millions-of-years old lizards evolving on Earth, with Earth conditions, into an end result of bipedal, intelligent reptiles who can speak would realistically look like. No, no, no. Because "it's fantasy!", they just paint a woman's face green(although it looks like someone threw up on Neve McIntosh's face, and then put her in a "sexy" relationship with a human woman. And there's your Silurian! You want a realistic looking bipedal lizard? How about a dinosaur in Victorian London? After all, it's just fantasy!



You know the last good Silurian story was WARRIORS OF THE DEEP. Consistent with the previous two serials and the characters are both alien and menacing. NUWHO killed them dead. Sontarans too by the way.

Have spent a long time listening to how WARRIORS was the apocalypse and yet the same ones who did so now do a complete reversal and praise the NUWHO Silurian silliness.

Whatever the Party says, we obey.

Bah.
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Re: Mondasian Cybermen series finale!

Postby bobmcpherson » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:11 pm

Bottom line. Classic Who........and this applies to the older culture and the current one..........made a concerted attempt to take the material seriously and ground it in a believable milieu. Versimilitude. Ground rules around the rest is built. This is how it used to be done. This is why WHO survived as long as it has. If it started as this La Cage Au Folle anything can happen.........unless it violates SJO group think, it would not have survived.

If nothing means anything then nothing is important. Turn the channel Mate!

Now someone will point to an exception in Classic Who but that will be the exception that proves the rule. The general consensus is that Tom Baker's run started to go south when HE went to far and started to turn it into a farce. Though it was praised by ProtoSJOs at the time, very few deny today that the McCoy run...politics in place of respect for the material or even trying anymore is what killed the Classic run dead.

Why do people complain about the Roger Moore run of James Bond? Because the producers started to go too far in the comedy/farce direction and thus destroyed the grounding the films needed to function.

Hammer may have not had the budgets and special effects of today's films...........but they never made anything like VAN HELSING?? Dracula laying eggs ? REALLY??

Those who go on about how WHO is "just fantasy" are actually attempting several things.

1) They are trying to silence ANY criticism of the SJO material being injected into the program. Tgey cannot defend it so they, in effect, declare WHO to be a non-free speech zone. Shut up and praise the show or just stop watching. It is OURS now.
2) Admiting that THEY cannot EVEN attempt a coherent logical justification for their SJO motivated rubbish so, when they are not just insulting people while claiming how wonderful they are--thus avoiding actually discussing the issues that WAY, they come up with false diversions and constructs. "Oh it is just a fantasy" the logical response being well then why do YOU care if someone else criticizes something you have stated repeatedly that you have no real liking or even respect for?? Answer. Because it is not nor ever WILL BE about the show. It is about using the show for politics. Another whopper is the moronic "Who is about change" which is a meaningless chant. WHO is about a male Englishman Space alien inspired by H. G. Wells, Nigel Kneale and Victorian literature who takes young earth people on fabulous adventures in space and time. It is a science fiction program. NOTHING is about change. The show was NEVER about change. It was about how to keep the premise going after the original cast left. How to maintain the foundation upon which the show was based. The show with THE UNEARTHLY CHILD was still the same show with REVELATION OF THE DALEKS.
It was when person either hostile or indifferent to the show...McCoy, Davies, Moffatt became involved that the show was and is seriously destabilized and is unrecognizable. Vandalism is change. Destruction is change. WHO is about what it was about in 1963 or it does not exist.

Fandom exists for a reason and it is not because the show does not effectively exist but because it did.

The alteration of the Silurians was obvious the result of two motives. 1) Loathing of the program...as per Moffat's actions and statements 2) A political agenda that cared ONLY for itself and not the good of the characters/show.

The whole Silurian in London lesbian plot line has been blindingly stupid and led inevitably to a DEATH IN HEAVEN.

So now Moffat by bringing back the Mondasian Cybermen is trying to lure back the fans he hates so much that he drove them away in the first place.

The Mondasian Cybermen are creepy...as BIG FINISH has demonstrated repeatedly but it is very doubtful NUWHO will be able to do them right.......OR even wants to. It is ploy by people who are so contemptuous of Who fans that they think any slop in a bowl with attract the flies.

I may return to WHO only after Moffat is gone and I see who the Doctor regenerates to.

Fans were told to get out.

Now they need a reason to come back.

I do not think the show has even the first idea how to go about it.

They hate fans and the show so much.
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Re: Mondasian Cybermen series finale!

Postby -JMW- » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:22 pm

bobmcpherson wrote:You know the last good Silurian story was WARRIORS OF THE DEEP. Consistent with the previous two serials and the characters are both alien and menacing. NUWHO killed them dead. Sontarans too by the way.
Have spent a long time listening to how WARRIORS was the apocalypse and yet the same ones who did so now do a complete reversal and praise the NUWHO Silurian silliness.
Whatever the Party says, we obey.
Bah.

Good luck defending the Myrka abomination. #Embarrassment

Image

The Peter Davison era is "my" era. Sadly Warriors of the Deep is one of the most unoriginal, bland stories in the entire show. The creature effects are sub-par...the redesigned Silurians have a "run over by a bus" look. The acting is stilted at best (even from our regulars), and at worst laughable. I'm still wondering wtf a karate stance against Dobbin the panto horse from Rentaghost was going to do...but hey - crazy times!!

Image

The best I can comment regarding that story is that the samurai inspired Sea-Devil apparel looks awesome and some of the underwater vessel effects were, for their time, well crafted.
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Re: Mondasian Cybermen series finale!

Postby The Ginger Cat » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:25 pm

Anymore personal comments or trolling from you cyberlad or anyone else in here will be deleted. Just stick to chatting about the topic in hand and not the posters on the thread.

Thread opened. Sorry about that folks. Had to move some Shuzbot posts.
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Re: Mondasian Cybermen series finale!

Postby shuzbot » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:42 pm

The Ginger Cat wrote:Anymore personal comments or trolling from you cyberlad or anyone else in here will be deleted. Just stick to chatting about the topic in hand and not the posters on the thread.

Thread opened. Sorry about that folks. Had to move some Shuzbot posts.


Thanks, GC
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Re: Mondasian Cybermen series finale!

Postby cyberlad » Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:37 am

koschei kriegsleiter wrote:Right. Don't bother responding to anything more that I say, JMW, as I shan't be reading it.

And again, your "it's all fantasy!" mentality is what's ruined Doctor Who for many. As an example, we KNOW that there were never any sightings of dinosaurs rampaging through Victorian London. Thus, even though Doctor Who is fiction, there should NOT be dinosaurs rampaging through Victorian London, in plain sight of EVERYONE, in Doctor Who either.

Yes, "lizard people don't exist", but IF lizard people DID exist, what do the laws of biology, evolution etc. tell us they would be more or less like? Most certainly NOT Vastra. So, even though Doctor Who is fiction, IF any lizard people who fully evolved on Earth, and are 100% indigenous to this planet actually did exist, then these lizard people should look what lizard would look like IF they DID actually exist.

The natural conclusion of your reasoning is the likes of Death in Heaven, the worst episode in the entire 54 year history of the show.

The natural conclusion of what I seem to be hitting my head against the wall trying to explain to you is the likes of The Daleks, The Time Meddler, (Doctor Who And) The Silurians etc.In other words the serials that made the Classic series CLASSIC.

And in fact it was your "it's all fantasy!" approach in the McCoy era that helped kill off the original series.

I mean, seriously, we all know that Happy Valley is 100% fiction, but does that give the green light to have Catherine trying to keep law and order in the face of flying robots and alien invasions? Why not? After all, none of those HV characters actually exist to begin with!

Or, I'm guessing you wouldn't have minded if actual wizards and sorcerers had checked into Fawlty Towers. After, all the hotel doesn't really exist, and think of the comedic potential of Basil struggling to make sense of a magician!! :floorroll:


By that logic, there shouldn't have been dinosaurs in London, Cybermen invading London, or giant maggots. I mean none of these events happened in the real world those stories were set in and yet their perfectly ok in your eyes. I know to solve the problem let's chop off Neve Macintosh's breasts shall we? Because guess what women have breasts and since there aren't any reptile women around any female reptile would have to be played by a human woman and a human woman has breasts therefore a female Silurian will have breasts.
You don't have to hate the new series here but it helps.
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Re: Mondasian Cybermen series finale!

Postby cyberlad » Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:38 am

-JMW- wrote:
bobmcpherson wrote:You know the last good Silurian story was WARRIORS OF THE DEEP. Consistent with the previous two serials and the characters are both alien and menacing. NUWHO killed them dead. Sontarans too by the way.
Have spent a long time listening to how WARRIORS was the apocalypse and yet the same ones who did so now do a complete reversal and praise the NUWHO Silurian silliness.
Whatever the Party says, we obey.
Bah.

Good luck defending the Myrka abomination. #Embarrassment

Image

The Peter Davison era is "my" era. Sadly Warriors of the Deep is one of the most unoriginal, bland stories in the entire show. The creature effects are sub-par...the redesigned Silurians have a "run over by a bus" look. The acting is stilted at best (even from our regulars), and at worst laughable. I'm still wondering wtf a karate stance against Dobbin the panto horse from Rentaghost was going to do...but hey - crazy times!!

Image

The best I can comment regarding that story is that the samurai inspired Sea-Devil apparel looks awesome and some of the underwater vessel effects were, for their time, well crafted.


Ah but that was the classic series and that's fine now if new who did that we wouldn't hear the end of it.
You don't have to hate the new series here but it helps.
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Re: Mondasian Cybermen series finale!

Postby cyberlad » Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:49 am

-JMW- wrote:
koschei kriegsleiter wrote:Right. Don't bother responding to anything more that I say, JMW, as I shan't be reading it.

And again, your "it's all fantasy!" mentality is what's ruined Doctor Who for many. As an example, we KNOW that there were never any sightings of dinosaurs rampaging through Victorian London. Thus, even though Doctor Who is fiction, there should NOT be dinosaurs rampaging through Victorian London, in plain sight of EVERYONE, in Doctor Who either.

Yes, "lizard people don't exist", but IF lizard people DID exist, what do the laws of biology, evolution etc. tell us they would be more or less like? Most certainly NOT Vastra. So, even though Doctor Who is fiction, IF any lizard people who fully evolved on Earth, and are 100% indigenous to this planet actually did exist, then these lizard people should look what lizard would look like IF they DID actually exist.

The natural conclusion of your reasoning is the likes of Death in Heaven, the worst episode in the entire 54 year history of the show.

The natural conclusion of what I seem to be hitting my head against the wall trying to explain to you is the likes of The Daleks, The Time Meddler, (Doctor Who And) The Silurians etc.In other words the serials that made the Classic series CLASSIC.

And in fact it was your "it's all fantasy!" approach in the McCoy era that helped kill off the original series.

I mean, seriously, we all know that Happy Valley is 100% fiction, but does that give the green light to have Catherine trying to keep law and order in the face of flying robots and alien invasions? Why not? After all, none of those HV characters actually exist to begin with!

Or, I'm guessing you wouldn't have minded if actual wizards and sorcerers had checked into Fawlty Towers. After, all the hotel doesn't really exist, and think of the comedic potential of Basil struggling to make sense of a magician!! :floorroll:

Ah, I see - you are confusing "fantasy" with "fiction".
Yes, in the broad sense of the word "Fawlty Towers" is both a "fiction" and a "Fantasy"...but genre-wise it is merely "fiction" with some "comedic-drama"...so, In the "reality" of "Fawlty Towers" it would make no sense to jump into the "fantasy" genre by including "wizards and sorcerers" as if they truly existed (rather than cos-play).

Now, Doctor Who is (and has been since Barbara and Ian stumbled inside a box apparently bigger on the inside) a fantasy series.
One might argue that, at that initial point it was merely "scientific" in nature, being that the "science" of a TARDIS might be achievable outside the scope of human knowledge/experience - but then one might argue that about all fantasy elements...including "lizard people".

"dinosaurs rampaging through Victorian London"
Well we have seen dinosaurs rampaging through seventies London (and apparently off-screen the world); we have also seen a twin-earth accompanied by cybermen back in 1986; Silurians and Sea-Devils living under the earth; Cybermen in London again via sewers; Autons destroying all in their path - twice!; more than version of the Atlantis tale; a "loch Ness Monster" very visibly rearing it's head; an Earth mission to Mars(!); Yeti taking over London and the Underground; War Machines running amok; Daleks in sixties school and surrounding streets...and on and on and on....
We also have Planet of Giants and The Mind Robber, giving license to expanded fantastical ideas...

- Doctor Who is, was and presumably always will be(?) ridiculous fun aimed primarily at the young. One can attempt to make some sense of it all I suppose, or even justify it as something that might actually occur if that helps. i prefer to accept that which is delivered (as I do not create the show) and take it on it's own merits. 8-)

"Death In Heaven"
Well yes, you might think that it's the worst Who adventure...but you are not in the majority.
And that is the problem - you seem to be attempting to posit your own lack of appreciation for the current incarnation as an intellectual fact that others should adhere to or be doomed to ignorance. That those who do appreciate the show in it's current form are somehow intellectually inferior. I'm here to tell you that you are in the minority - albeit a very, very, very vocal minority, which might encourage further misinformed bias on the part of those who "hate".

As to the McCoy era - it certainly wasn't to my taste (I tuned out), and I think it might have been alleviated somewhat with more relatable personas in place of the two leads. I think JN-T outstayed beyond his creative drive and drove away much of the grounding talent, but I can see that some effort went into providing something fresh...and to many younger viewers it seems to have hit a chord...I've seen a lot of positive reviews of that era. I wouldn't state that they were "wrong", just that the style wasn't to my taste...and maybe the frivolity determined the eventual fate of the show....and subsequent rise I suppose too.

Read my comments or don't - although why bother communicating on a social network (such as a forum) if you only want to converse with those you agree. Each to their own of course.


It all comes back to classic good new bad.
You don't have to hate the new series here but it helps.
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Re: Mondasian Cybermen series finale!

Postby The Ginger Cat » Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:27 am

Seeing as none of this has bugger all to do with Mondasian Cybermen returning in the Series 10 finale, and the thread's gone off-topic and degenerated somewhat into a ClassicWho v NuWho one, I'm locking it until further notice.
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