Rate "The Pyramid at the End of the World"

For discussion of series 10 of Doctor Who starring Peter Capaldi

Rate "The Pyramid at the End of the World"

10
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10
12%
7
22
27%
6
14
17%
5
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5%
4
8
10%
3
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5%
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Total votes : 82

Re: Rate "The Pyramid at the End of the World"

Postby LizR » Mon May 29, 2017 12:14 pm

Oh, and if nothing else, the writers could have read up on the butterfly effect and why you CAN'T predict the future via a computer simulation. If nothing else, Quantum theory would make it impossible, but actually uncertainty kicks in well above that level...
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Re: Rate "The Pyramid at the End of the World"

Postby -JMW- » Mon May 29, 2017 12:28 pm

LizR wrote:Oh, and if nothing else, the writers could have read up on the butterfly effect and why you CAN'T predict the future via a computer simulation. If nothing else, Quantum theory would make it impossible, but actually uncertainty kicks in well above that level...

If the story is still being set in a matrix (even if we are in a matrix of our own reality) then all bets are off.
Essentially this is Doctor Who and Doctor Who, like it or not, is and always has been based on fantasy...you'll enjoy the ride more if you don't seek to unravel loose strands.

Some words from Verity Lambert:
"We literally spent hours and hours trying to find an explanation for Time And Relative Dimension In Space…
Finally, after about two days of headbashing, I said we’re not going to explain it! There is no explanation, and if we don’t give one, people will accept it. I mean, it’s bigger on the inside – how can you ever explain that? So we didn’t. And nobody ever asked!"


And some from Ron "Star Trek" Moore:
Star Trek: The Next Generation writer Ron Moore revealed that the writers on ST:TNG didn’t bother to actually insert any science into their fiction. He described how the writers would just insert “tech” into the scripts whenever they needed to resolve a story or plot line, then they’d have consultants fill in the appropriate words (aka technobabble) later.

“It became the solution to so many plot lines and so many stories,” Moore said. “It was so mechanical that we had science consultants who would just come up with the words for us and we’d just write ‘tech’ in the script. You know, Picard would say ‘Commander La Forge, tech the tech to the warp drive.’ I’m serious. If you look at those scripts, you’ll see that…

“It’s a rhythm and it’s a structure, and the words are meaningless. It’s not about anything except just sort of going through this dance of how they tech their way out of it.”
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Re: Rate "The Pyramid at the End of the World"

Postby Paolo_Sammut » Mon May 29, 2017 12:29 pm

Nu Who is why I always have a couple of drinks before it starts - I am able to take it with a pinch of salt whilst I am watching it and usually just go with the ride; although occasionally shout incoherently at the TV :)

I thought there were lots of good ideas here but badly executed and full of plot holes (I still haven't forgiven Moffat in that we don't know how the TARDIS exploded). Also the blindness thing seems contrived now since it occurred at the end of the previous story only to be resolved in this one. It would have been far more interesting to keep the Doctor blind until his regeneration I felt.
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Re: Rate "The Pyramid at the End of the World"

Postby paulhickling » Mon May 29, 2017 12:39 pm

Liked it personally despite it's faults, but one thing that grated with me was the President of Earth thing. It's one of many ott ideas. Even RTD's 'Earth's hero' where folks shouted help us Doctor and he appeared was better.

And weren't we busy trying to get The Doctor unknown in the Universe a bit back? Wasn't he wanting to be less well known to everyone? Or has that gone again now?
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Re: Rate "The Pyramid at the End of the World"

Postby lepter » Mon May 29, 2017 2:40 pm

-JMW- wrote:
LizR wrote:Oh, and if nothing else, the writers could have read up on the butterfly effect and why you CAN'T predict the future via a computer simulation. If nothing else, Quantum theory would make it impossible, but actually uncertainty kicks in well above that level...

If the story is still being set in a matrix (even if we are in a matrix of our own reality) then all bets are off.
Essentially this is Doctor Who and Doctor Who, like it or not, is and always has been based on fantasy...you'll enjoy the ride more if you don't seek to unravel loose strands.

Some words from Verity Lambert:
"We literally spent hours and hours trying to find an explanation for Time And Relative Dimension In Space…
Finally, after about two days of headbashing, I said we’re not going to explain it! There is no explanation, and if we don’t give one, people will accept it. I mean, it’s bigger on the inside – how can you ever explain that? So we didn’t. And nobody ever asked!"


And some from Ron "Star Trek" Moore:
Star Trek: The Next Generation writer Ron Moore revealed that the writers on ST:TNG didn’t bother to actually insert any science into their fiction. He described how the writers would just insert “tech” into the scripts whenever they needed to resolve a story or plot line, then they’d have consultants fill in the appropriate words (aka technobabble) later.

“It became the solution to so many plot lines and so many stories,” Moore said. “It was so mechanical that we had science consultants who would just come up with the words for us and we’d just write ‘tech’ in the script. You know, Picard would say ‘Commander La Forge, tech the tech to the warp drive.’ I’m serious. If you look at those scripts, you’ll see that…

“It’s a rhythm and it’s a structure, and the words are meaningless. It’s not about anything except just sort of going through this dance of how they tech their way out of it.”

I get what your saying in that it's just a story and made up but it helps if there is a semblance of authenticity to the story. Biolabs do not have an automatic atmospheric purge system that expels the air of the lab into the atmosphere (plus it can't be shut off if it had one...which it wouldnt). That's the whole point of Biolabs with quarantines. It's just silly.
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Re: Rate "The Pyramid at the End of the World"

Postby -JMW- » Mon May 29, 2017 4:16 pm

lepter wrote:I get what your saying in that it's just a story and made up but it helps if there is a semblance of authenticity to the story. Biolabs do not have an automatic atmospheric purge system that expels the air of the lab into the atmosphere (plus it can't be shut off if it had one...which it wouldnt). That's the whole point of Biolabs with quarantines. It's just silly.

Well maybe they are not supposed to (I do not know as i have yet to visit and familiarise myself with every lab), but this lab did. The regular purges may not have been considered an issue, given that the reaction was an entirely unexpected event. It was also a very small lab, with only two people at this part of the building., so who is to say they had the funds to overkill on security - maybe they could get away with a regular purge and lax protocol.

Just as one might have expected a ferry not to be able to sail with it's cargo doors open - yet it's tragically happened and people lost their lives; or as one might expect a nuclear power plant to have foolproof safety precautions - yet - Chernobyl (incidentally Chernobyl, as with many an industry facility did regularly vent into the local environment before the disaster - fishermen in the local area benefited from the heat generated to catch more fish apparently).
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Re: Rate "The Pyramid at the End of the World"

Postby -JMW- » Mon May 29, 2017 4:36 pm

A chap on Roobarbs forum has just posted a link to the excised dialogue...


Smooths out the line of deductive reasoning leading to Nardole's "Bacteria" idea.
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Re: Rate "The Pyramid at the End of the World"

Postby oldschool » Mon May 29, 2017 4:40 pm

To be fair this episode contained the one moment this series that built up any tension or importance when the Doctor couldn't see the numbers on the lock because of his blindness. I actually started to sit up and pay attention but then we were back to whimsical default within seconds viz a viz some Alien abracadabra spell that restored his sight.
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Re: Rate "The Pyramid at the End of the World"

Postby -JMW- » Mon May 29, 2017 4:45 pm

oldschool wrote:To be fair this episode contained the one moment this series that built up any tension or importance when the Doctor couldn't see the numbers on the lock because of his blindness. I actually started to sit up and pay attention but then we were back to whimsical default within seconds viz a viz some Alien abracadabra spell that restored his sight.

Yeah but at that point we do not know what they did to restore it....what if the aliens have figured out a way to put everyone in that matrix (or tap into the "real-world" matrix as Neo did in the final matrix movie)...and thus have the ability to alter the codes that effect all of existence. They seem to have altered the timeline itself in part three and put themselves into Earth's history (and maybe the Pyramid is a naughty Time-lady's TARDIS).

We just don't know yet as part three is where the resolution comes (or not perhaps).
To complain right now about the unresolved points, would be akin to complaining at the end of each classic Who cliffhanger.
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Re: Rate "The Pyramid at the End of the World"

Postby dave hoskin » Mon May 29, 2017 4:58 pm

Paolo_Sammut wrote:I thought there were lots of good ideas here but badly executed and full of plot holes (I still haven't forgiven Moffat in that we don't know how the TARDIS exploded).


We did get an explanation for that one. It was in Time of the Doctor. Arguably a bit late, but still.
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Re: Rate "The Pyramid at the End of the World"

Postby lepter » Mon May 29, 2017 5:44 pm

-JMW- wrote:
lepter wrote:I get what your saying in that it's just a story and made up but it helps if there is a semblance of authenticity to the story. Biolabs do not have an automatic atmospheric purge system that expels the air of the lab into the atmosphere (plus it can't be shut off if it had one...which it wouldnt). That's the whole point of Biolabs with quarantines. It's just silly.

Well maybe they are not supposed to (I do not know as i have yet to visit and familiarise myself with every lab), but this lab did. The regular purges may not have been considered an issue, given that the reaction was an entirely unexpected event. It was also a very small lab, with only two people at this part of the building., so who is to say they had the funds to overkill on security - maybe they could get away with a regular purge and lax protocol.

Just as one might have expected a ferry not to be able to sail with it's cargo doors open - yet it's tragically happened and people lost their lives; or as one might expect a nuclear power plant to have foolproof safety precautions - yet - Chernobyl (incidentally Chernobyl, as with many an industry facility did regularly vent into the local environment before the disaster - fishermen in the local area benefited from the heat generated to catch more fish apparently).

But it was obviously something she knew about so it wasn't accidental. Also there is no point having a quarantine room that is open to the atmosphere. It really defeats the point. They had biosiuts on. Why bother? Biolabs may scrimp on cheap pertrdishes but not such huge lapses. Not buying it. But like you say...its made up. Still enjoyed it in spite of its faults.
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Re: Rate "The Pyramid at the End of the World"

Postby -JMW- » Mon May 29, 2017 6:02 pm

lepter wrote:But it was obviously something she knew about so it wasn't accidental. Also there is no point having a quarantine room that is open to the atmosphere. It really defeats the point. They had biosiuts on. Why bother? Biolabs may scrimp on cheap pertrdishes but not such huge lapses. Not buying it. But like you say...its made up. Still enjoyed it in spite of its faults.

Newly disclosed CDC biolab failures 'like a screenplay for a disaster movie'
Encased in spacesuit-like gear needed to protect them from the world’s deadliest viruses, four scientists at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention stepped into their lab’s decontamination chamber where a shower of chemicals was supposed to kill anything on them and make it safe for them to exit into an adjacent changing room.

But the shower wouldn’t start, and warning lights appeared as a cascading series of safety systems began to fail inside one of the world’s most advanced biosafety level 4 labs. That's the highest level of containment and security, reserved for work with deadly Ebola and smallpox viruses and other pathogens that lack vaccines or reliable treatments.

Safety breaches at UK labs handling lethal viruses
Some of the organisms in the laboratories where safety breaches occurred have no vaccines or treatments.

High-security laboratories that handle lethal viruses and bacteria have reported more than 100 accidents or near-misses to safety regulators in the past five years, official reports have disclosed.

One error led to live anthrax being sent from a government facility to unsuspecting labs across the UK, a mistake that exposed other scientists to the disease. Another caused the failure of an air handling system that helped contain foot and mouth disease at a large animal lab.

...and the Titanic should never have sunk. Sometimes it's just a case of "the best laid plans of mice".

You need to apply for a security job at that (imaginary) lab, then you can ask your questions and tighten their (imaginary) procedures :D

Maybe it would feel more Doctor Who like if there had been an arrogant manager working at the lab...someone to dismiss any notion of danger the Doctor might warn him of ;)
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Re: Rate "The Pyramid at the End of the World"

Postby cyberlad » Tue May 30, 2017 12:54 am

Where does it say the biolab is run by two people? Frankly Liz it looks like you fishing for criticism again.
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Re: Rate "The Pyramid at the End of the World"

Postby Miss Cathcart » Tue May 30, 2017 8:32 am

Just caught up with Saturday's Who as I was at the Kaleidoscope event in Birmingham.

Overall it felt like recycled stuff from earlier New Who. The President of the Earth thing. The saving the world with love thing. Seen it all before. The whole thing also felt quite slow and unengaging. Given that we have now had two parts of this story there has been no real character development; none of the characters feels developed in any way.

6/10.
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Re: Rate "The Pyramid at the End of the World"

Postby johnshoo » Tue May 30, 2017 2:36 pm

Miss Cathcart wrote:Just caught up with Saturday's Who as I was at the Kaleidoscope event in Birmingham.

Overall it felt like recycled stuff from earlier New Who. The President of the Earth thing. The saving the world with love thing. Seen it all before. The whole thing also felt quite slow and unengaging. Given that we have now had two parts of this story there has been no real character development; none of the characters feels developed in any way.

6/10.


Probably because the first part all took place inside a simulation and didn't include the "real" characters. ;)

Actually, I've been thinking about how to make this disjointed three part story make sense after "Pyramid" and the only conclusion I can come up with is that they should reveal that the Doctor and Bill are still inside a simulation (and "Extremis" was a simulation within a simulation). I'm not saying it would be a good twist, but it would make sense of how dense all the characters were acting this episode.
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Re: Rate "The Pyramid at the End of the World"

Postby lepter » Tue May 30, 2017 9:00 pm

-JMW- wrote:
lepter wrote:But it was obviously something she knew about so it wasn't accidental. Also there is no point having a quarantine room that is open to the atmosphere. It really defeats the point. They had biosiuts on. Why bother? Biolabs may scrimp on cheap pertrdishes but not such huge lapses. Not buying it. But like you say...its made up. Still enjoyed it in spite of its faults.

Newly disclosed CDC biolab failures 'like a screenplay for a disaster movie'
Encased in spacesuit-like gear needed to protect them from the world’s deadliest viruses, four scientists at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention stepped into their lab’s decontamination chamber where a shower of chemicals was supposed to kill anything on them and make it safe for them to exit into an adjacent changing room.

But the shower wouldn’t start, and warning lights appeared as a cascading series of safety systems began to fail inside one of the world’s most advanced biosafety level 4 labs. That's the highest level of containment and security, reserved for work with deadly Ebola and smallpox viruses and other pathogens that lack vaccines or reliable treatments.

Safety breaches at UK labs handling lethal viruses
Some of the organisms in the laboratories where safety breaches occurred have no vaccines or treatments.

High-security laboratories that handle lethal viruses and bacteria have reported more than 100 accidents or near-misses to safety regulators in the past five years, official reports have disclosed.

One error led to live anthrax being sent from a government facility to unsuspecting labs across the UK, a mistake that exposed other scientists to the disease. Another caused the failure of an air handling system that helped contain foot and mouth disease at a large animal lab.

...and the Titanic should never have sunk. Sometimes it's just a case of "the best laid plans of mice".

You need to apply for a security job at that (imaginary) lab, then you can ask your questions and tighten their (imaginary) procedures :D

Maybe it would feel more Doctor Who like if there had been an arrogant manager working at the lab...someone to dismiss any notion of danger the Doctor might warn him of ;)

LOL......fair enough.....argument demolished....LOL
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Re: Rate "The Pyramid at the End of the World"

Postby Nosey Neighbour » Wed May 31, 2017 10:48 pm

After reading this thread while I'm away I'm looking forward to seeing the episode for myself and deciding whether it's enthralling / utter rubbish - opinion is so divided but it sounds an improvement on the previous episode.

I have a sense of foreboding that some clever dick will make these Starmonks / Cybermen gender neutral when we get to see the Cyberthem / Mondasians later :D
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Re: Rate "The Pyramid at the End of the World"

Postby LizR » Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:00 am

cyberlad wrote:Where does it say the biolab is run by two people? Frankly Liz it looks like you fishing for criticism again.

There were only two people doing the work that was going to lead up to the disaster.

But anyway, I'm hoping that everything will make sense after this weekend's episode. :roll:
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Re: Rate "The Pyramid at the End of the World"

Postby -JMW- » Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:57 am

LizR wrote:
cyberlad wrote:Where does it say the biolab is run by two people? Frankly Liz it looks like you fishing for criticism again.

There were only two people doing the work that was going to lead up to the disaster.

But anyway, I'm hoping that everything will make sense after this weekend's episode. :roll:

Maybe if they'd had more staff the disaster would have been averted :)
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Re: Rate "The Pyramid at the End of the World"

Postby Rob Mammone » Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:48 am

Moffat can't f*ck off soon enough.
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