Rate "The Lie of the Land"

For discussion of series 10 of Doctor Who starring Peter Capaldi

Rate "The Lie of the Land"

10
2
2%
9
2
2%
8
7
8%
7
14
16%
6
5
6%
5
9
10%
4
18
21%
3
8
9%
2
7
8%
1
14
16%
 
Total votes : 86

Re: Rate "The Lie of the Land"

Postby johnshoo » Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:38 am

I guess I'm opposite of popular opinion again because I thought this was quite a bit better than last week. It wasn't a great episode, mind you, but at least for the most part the characters didn't act in ways that defied logical explanation.

Things I liked:

- The overall tone of the episode. It was dark, but there were still some light humour moments that worked, such as Nardole's lines to Bill when he breaks into her house.

- Missy. She was significantly toned down here compared to her previous appearances and this actually made her come across more calculated and menacing.

Things I didn't like:

- The ending. Bill defeats the Monks through the power of love. It's been done before and it's a played out concept.

- On that note, the Monks themselves barely felt like a presence in this episode. They fought them briefly outside the control room and then the final confrontation was with a solitary monk sitting stationary in a chair and I don't think any of them ever even spoke. It came across as weird.

- The fake-out regeneration was predictable. I bet it was only done to have trailer fodder.

I think this story would have been better if they basically dropped the first two parts and expanded this episode to a two-parter. Start with the Monks having already conquered the Earth and the Doctor, Bill and Nardole lead a resistance against them. Flesh out the other resistance members and the lady leading the Memory Police so we have actual supporting characters to care about. End it with a big battle between the resistance and Memory Police while the Doctor and Bill confront the Monks.

Anyway, this is like a 5/10 episode. Average fare for Nu Who. Still waiting for a big stand out episode this season.
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Re: Rate "The Lie of the Land"

Postby LizR » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:28 am

-JMW- wrote:
LizR wrote:And who has cassette players nowadays?

People who aren't permitted access to any form of historical information? (as mentioned in the ep).

Ah yes, that makes sense. Obviously that bit of exposition was drowned out by the aforementioned background noise. Did anyone else get that or was it just my, ahem, privately obtained copy?
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Re: Rate "The Lie of the Land"

Postby -JMW- » Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:21 am

LizR wrote:
-JMW- wrote:
LizR wrote:And who has cassette players nowadays?

People who aren't permitted access to any form of historical information? (as mentioned in the ep).

Ah yes, that makes sense. Obviously that bit of exposition was drowned out by the aforementioned background noise. Did anyone else get that or was it just my, ahem, privately obtained copy?

I wore headphones the first time I watched it and had no issue with the audio - it was perfectly calibrated. Last night I watched it again with audio through TV speakers. Not too bad, but the music did eclipse the discussion on a couple of faster moving moments, but not sufficiently for me to misunderstand dialogue.

I have watched the show and used the stereo speakers for the previous episodes (then later on headphones). I've not had any concerns understanding what is being said.

I think it depends on one's sound system and how it's calibrated.
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Re: Rate "The Lie of the Land"

Postby -JMW- » Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:42 am

johnshoo wrote:- On that note, the Monks themselves barely felt like a presence in this episode. They fought them briefly outside the control room and then the final confrontation was with a solitary monk sitting stationary in a chair and I don't think any of them ever even spoke. It came across as weird.

I think the lack of monks was part of the point (and of course aided any budgetary restriction).
It was mentioned in a Doctor-Nardole discussion. They were able to convince people to assume that they had greater numbers, when in fact they were sparse.
Similar to the way terrorism works - isolated but graphic incidents causing huge long lasting media attention and perpetuating great fear. Resulting in long-term resentments and knee-jerk hard-line reactions. Freedoms are displaced. Hostilities raised.

I think this story would have been better if they basically dropped the first two parts and expanded this episode to a two-parter. Start with the Monks having already conquered the Earth and the Doctor, Bill and Nardole lead a resistance against them. Flesh out the other resistance members and the lady leading the Memory Police so we have actual supporting characters to care about. End it with a big battle between the resistance and Memory Police while the Doctor and Bill confront the Monks.

That might have worked better....I don't know - but it sounds too expensive. I do know that some fans have complained that stories are too short, seemingly longing for more scenes of strategic plotting, investigation and deduction. We get exactly that and the same fans hate it. Oh well.
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Re: Rate "The Lie of the Land"

Postby Miss Cathcart » Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:00 am

A disappointing finale to this trilogy. I liked the dark tone and Missy was definitely less annoying than on previous occasions, though I couldn't see why the Doctor visited her to get advice on how to defeat the monks when he then thought of that himself (or maybe I missed something).

Pearl Mackie gave a good performance as Bill, as did Capaldi, but they were both let down by a lacklustre script. The ending was terrible: the idea of Bill could defeat an alien race that's taken over the world just by thinking about her mum (and after the Doctor failed to do it to boot) was ridiculous.

5/10.
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Re: Rate "The Lie of the Land"

Postby Happygolucky » Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:57 am

Worst episode so far, absolutely "Bobbins!!!" I'm going to watch it again though just to make sure I didn't miss anything, i doubt I did?!!
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Re: Rate "The Lie of the Land"

Postby thecypher » Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:16 pm

Honestly, I give up with these reviews. I reckon I'll just make a bot that posts "This episode was crap" on every one of these threads. Usual references to Bill's sexuality and racism. Plot made no sense. Another resolution cop-out. Monks weren't very threatening.

2/10

Not much looking forward to Gatiss's one either. Even though it looks good, I still expect disappointment.
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Re: Rate "The Lie of the Land"

Postby Happygolucky » Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:37 pm

I gave 2/10 as well. I am really hoping the Ice Warriors episode does them proud, they are by far my favourite monster. Only a week to find out. :D
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Re: Rate "The Lie of the Land"

Postby johnshoo » Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:57 pm

-JMW- wrote:
johnshoo wrote:- On that note, the Monks themselves barely felt like a presence in this episode. They fought them briefly outside the control room and then the final confrontation was with a solitary monk sitting stationary in a chair and I don't think any of them ever even spoke. It came across as weird.

I think the lack of monks was part of the point (and of course aided any budgetary restriction).
It was mentioned in a Doctor-Nardole discussion. They were able to convince people to assume that they had greater numbers, when in fact they were sparse.


That isn't really what I meant though. I get that the actual physical number of monks was supposed to be smaller than they appeared. What I meant is that as the main antagonist of the story it seemed like they weren't that big a deal. The final showdown with them felt underwhelming and unsatisfying.

-JMW- wrote:
I think this story would have been better if they basically dropped the first two parts and expanded this episode to a two-parter. Start with the Monks having already conquered the Earth and the Doctor, Bill and Nardole lead a resistance against them. Flesh out the other resistance members and the lady leading the Memory Police so we have actual supporting characters to care about. End it with a big battle between the resistance and Memory Police while the Doctor and Bill confront the Monks.

That might have worked better....I don't know - but it sounds too expensive.


Maybe, but I mean - and I don't want this to sound snarky - but maybe they shouldn't tell a story if they can't afford to tell it well?

-JMW- wrote:I do know that some fans have complained that stories are too short, seemingly longing for more scenes of strategic plotting, investigation and deduction. We get exactly that and the same fans hate it. Oh well.


Except this story wasn't that? "Extremis" had barely anything to do with the next two parts, aside from introducing the Monks. "Pyramid" was a messy 45-minute set-up for what should have been the meat of the story. "Lie of the Land" is pretty much a standalone episode as it is, save for a couple references to last week.
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Re: Rate "The Lie of the Land"

Postby -JMW- » Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:34 pm

johnshoo wrote:That isn't really what I meant though. I get that the actual physical number of monks was supposed to be smaller than they appeared. What I meant is that as the main antagonist of the story it seemed like they weren't that big a deal. The final showdown with them felt underwhelming and unsatisfying.

I realise that. But the point was that they weren't that big a deal....they just puffed themselves up in the manner bullies do (except this being sci-fi/fantasy there was a fantastic explanation). When it came down to it they were shown to be the petty creatures they were and decided to run away (how permanently is anyone's guess).

Maybe, but I mean - and I don't want this to sound snarky - but maybe they shouldn't tell a story if they can't afford to tell it well?

I enjoyed it. But even if i hadn't, I'd rather ambitious ideas were attempted, even if it means they fail occasionally. Rather that than remaining "safe" and stale from the clichés of the past (moustache twirly villains etc).

This story had varying locations, a fair few bit-part players and extras, and it zipped along nicely whilst still developing a strategic and deductive narrative. I enjoyed the leech like nature of the fascistic foes and more-so them being given their marching orders by a people awakened from the "trance". Yeah i could have done with a few more monk centric scenes....but maybe they will turn up again before the end of the series?

No room for developed guest characters this week though...but the pace was spot on, and Bill's character shone through.

Except this story wasn't that? "Extremis" had barely anything to do with the next two parts, aside from introducing the Monks. "Pyramid" was a messy 45-minute set-up for what should have been the meat of the story (the invasion).

You are describing something that sounds very much a part of the whole, whilst able to retain it's individuality. A positive thing surely :?

"Lie of the Land" pretty much works as a stand-alone episode as it is, save for a couple references to last week.

I think you are right, and I think it's probably intentional in an adventure-hopping show like this because it's desirable not only to retain the viewers from last week, but also to attract new ones.
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Re: Rate "The Lie of the Land"

Postby Heccypoo » Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:48 pm

Reading these opinions almost make me tempted to watch the series again, just to see how bad it is...

But I wouldn't watch again till Moffhack is gone, even if you paid me..

Well, maybe if you paid me a few million £'s.. :mrgreen:

And arranged some form rehab....
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Re: Rate "The Lie of the Land"

Postby Bowtiesarecool » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:30 pm

Heccypoo wrote:Reading these opinions almost make me tempted to watch the series again, just to see how bad it is...

But I wouldn't watch again till Moffhack is gone, even if you paid me..

Well, maybe if you paid me a few million £'s.. :mrgreen:

And arranged some form rehab....


I can't wait until Moffat goes.

Christmas can't come soon enough. 8-)
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Re: Rate "The Lie of the Land"

Postby Heccypoo » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:59 pm

Bowtiesarecool wrote:
Heccypoo wrote:Reading these opinions almost make me tempted to watch the series again, just to see how bad it is...

But I wouldn't watch again till Moffhack is gone, even if you paid me..

Well, maybe if you paid me a few million £'s.. :mrgreen:

And arranged some form rehab....


I can't wait until Moffat goes.

Christmas can't come soon enough. 8-)


I'll bet does something, in the very last minutes of his last story, to deliberately screw with those who have criticised him....

Make Missy The Doctor's mother or some other timey whimey, bollocky wollocky, twattey wattery... 8-)
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Re: Rate "The Lie of the Land"

Postby shuzbot » Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:09 pm

Servorobot wrote:Couldn't find any reference to Bill being gay though.

Me neither.


thecypher wrote:Usual references to Bill's sexuality and racism.


In Lie fo the Land? I agree it was terrible but I don't remember anything about that.
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Re: Rate "The Lie of the Land"

Postby Nosey Neighbour » Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:15 pm

shuzbot wrote:
Servorobot wrote:Couldn't find any reference to Bill being gay though.

Me neither.


thecypher wrote:Usual references to Bill's sexuality and racism.


In Lie fo the Land? I agree it was terrible but I don't remember anything about that.


Just that awful voice which ultimately drove the commandos to commit suicide fighting the Monks.
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Re: Rate "The Lie of the Land"

Postby shuzbot » Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:23 pm

http://neilisthebestdalek.blogspot.co.u ... world.html

A review on somebodies blog, if you like those kind of things.
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Re: Rate "The Lie of the Land"

Postby johnshoo » Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:56 am

-JMW- wrote:
johnshoo wrote:That isn't really what I meant though. I get that the actual physical number of monks was supposed to be smaller than they appeared. What I meant is that as the main antagonist of the story it seemed like they weren't that big a deal. The final showdown with them felt underwhelming and unsatisfying.

I realise that. But the point was that they weren't that big a deal....they just puffed themselves up in the manner bullies do (except this being sci-fi/fantasy there was a fantastic explanation). When it came down to it they were shown to be the petty creatures they were and decided to run away (how permanently is anyone's guess).


They were the main villains and two episodes were just spent building them up. I don't know about everyone else, but I thought they were made out to be a pretty big deal right up until the ending.

-JMW- wrote:
Maybe, but I mean - and I don't want this to sound snarky - but maybe they shouldn't tell a story if they can't afford to tell it well?

I enjoyed it. But even if i hadn't, I'd rather ambitious ideas were attempted, even if it means they fail occasionally. Rather that than remaining "safe" and stale from the clichés of the past (moustache twirly villains etc).


I understand that overreaching on a story is a staple of Doctor Who back to the classic series, but in this case I don't think the issue was the budget but rather that the overall story was not really structured or paced as well as it could have been. (I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that point.)

-JMW- wrote:
Except this story wasn't that? "Extremis" had barely anything to do with the next two parts, aside from introducing the Monks. "Pyramid" was a messy 45-minute set-up for what should have been the meat of the story (the invasion).

You are describing something that sounds very much a part of the whole, whilst able to retain it's individuality. A positive thing surely :?


That's my issue though - these three past episodes weren't a whole, cohesive story that unfolded in three parts. At least one of the episodes was barely a whole, cohesive story within itself.

-JMW- wrote:
"Lie of the Land" pretty much works as a stand-alone episode as it is, save for a couple references to last week.

I think you are right, and I think it's probably intentional in an adventure-hopping show like this because it's desirable not only to retain the viewers from last week, but also to attract new ones.


I understand, but in the end I found it frustrating to watch more than once and I don't think that's a good way to retain viewers either.
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Re: Rate "The Lie of the Land"

Postby oldschool » Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:02 am

Some drivel about all conquering Monk supermen who apparently have witnessed every single event in galactic history ever and a lecture about racism.
1/10. Just f%ck off Moffat.
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Re: Rate "The Lie of the Land"

Postby -JMW- » Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:31 am

johnshoo wrote:They were the main villains and two episodes were just spent building them up. I don't know about everyone else, but I thought they were made out to be a pretty big deal right up until the ending.

True. And entirely the point of the episode...puffed up villains that were actually "outed" as nothings.

I understand that overreaching on a story is a staple of Doctor Who back to the classic series, but in this case I don't think the issue was the budget but rather that the overall story was not really structured or paced as well as it could have been. (I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that point.)

It was paced extremely well IMO. It resembled classic stories in that respect, which is what some have desired, but it remained very much a contemporary style and featured another "love conquers all" ending....both of which will continue to infuriate some. But above all it's probably the lack of confrontational "punch" and "pith" that is probably the disappointing factor. Maybe fans require a finalé conversation where the Doctor wittily informs the lead baddie how his own hubris was used to defeat him...then the bad guy(s) are removed whilst in a fit of rage.

That's my issue though - these three past episodes weren't a whole, cohesive story that unfolded in three parts. At least one of the episodes was barely a whole, cohesive story within itself.
In the end I found it frustrating to watch more than once and I don't think that's a good way to retain viewers either.

Many do seem to agree with you. This one seems to have disappointed the majority to varying degrees. The polls show a distinct drop in popularity from previous stories. Let's hope then that this is the blip of the season...next week's monster mayhem episode may unite fans again.
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Re: Rate "The Lie of the Land"

Postby Nosey Neighbour » Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:17 am

shuzbot wrote:http://neilisthebestdalek.blogspot.co.uk/2017/06/monk-y-world.html

A review on somebodies blog, if you like those kind of things.


That's very entertaining - thanks Shuz and mystery blogger.
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