Rate "World Enough and Time"

For discussion of series 10 of Doctor Who starring Peter Capaldi

Rate "World Enough and Time"

10
31
23%
9
41
31%
8
26
19%
7
13
10%
6
6
4%
5
3
2%
4
1
1%
3
6
4%
2
1
1%
1
6
4%
 
Total votes : 134

Re: Rate "World Enough and Time"

Postby Nosey Neighbour » Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:54 pm

That was a very clever story and credit where it's due. Everyone is right - the return of John Simm and the emergence of The Cybermen could and should have been a massive surprise.

What does grate massively is that it's blindingly obvious that there's a gender bending thread written right through this series with Missy / Master and Chip Girl Bill becoming a CyberMAN. That's not big or clever which is a shame when the same person can deliver a huge ship caught on the cusp of a black hole with time distortion.

I'm not liking the look of multigenerational Cybermen on the loose next week. Mondasian Cybermen are just perfect, thanks.

My young children were more appalled and horrified at Pearl Mackie eating with her mouth open :D rather than all the surgically altered passengers and crew.

I gave this an 8, let down by a Tardis crew I've grown to dislike each week as the 'humour' and the gratingly unsubtle / miscast Bill detracts from one of the finest actors ever to play Doctor Who.
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Re: Rate "World Enough and Time"

Postby johnshoo » Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:16 pm

Best episode of the season, easily. It was delightfully creepy and well-paced.

Just two parts that felt pretty stupid:

1. The five minute "Doctor Who" meta-joke. Utterly unnecessary.

2. Bill's tear with the whole "zoom in" on her eye. Again, unnecessary and undercut the impact of the final few moments of the episode for me. If they had just left it with her saying, "I waited for you" in the sing-song voice it would have been perfect.

I'm feeling a strong 8.
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Re: Rate "World Enough and Time"

Postby shuzbot » Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:23 pm

StellarX wrote:Can anyone explain why the John Simm Master was 'in disguise' in the first place (other than to set up a dramatic reveal for Moffat's story)?


As I said on P. 2 of this thread: "So Bill didn't recognise the ex-Prime Minster Harold Saxon." Why would she trust him otherwise?

Nosey Neighbour wrote:That was a very clever story and credit where it's due. Everyone is right - the return of John Simm and the emergence of The Cybermen could and should have been a massive surprise.


That maybe so but they have to market the show and getting Simm back was a big deal.
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Re: Rate "World Enough and Time"

Postby iank » Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:38 pm

All I can say is... wow! Aside from some typical cringeworthy humour and Moffat-trolling early on, that was actually excellent, probably the best episode for about six sodding years, to be honest! Dark, scary, great doom-laden atmosphere, a very impressive return for the original Cybermen (certainly not something I would have ever expected to see on TV in 2017!). It was great to have John Simm back too, and I loved him "doing an Ainley" and spending nearly the entire episode in disguise before ripping off his mask for the big reveal. :lol: I actually watched that again almost as soon as it had finished, which isn't something I've done for many a year (I've hardly been able to bear watching most of them once the last few years, let's face it). Terrific. :shock: :o :)


How much do we want to bet they'll screw it up next week, then? :D
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Re: Rate "World Enough and Time"

Postby Sid Rat » Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:08 am

It's never really possible to judge just one episode of a multi-episode story, so I expect views will change for good or for ill after next week's finale.

However after the first 5 to 10 minutes, during which I was rolling my eyes with the sheer awfulness of Moffat's frankly ham-fisted attempt to make the programme humorously self-referential, the story became really rather good.

Sure there are elements that can be criticised such as the seemingly random inclusion of the blue fella and the Master being in disguise for the thinnest of reasons, but the overall creepy atmosphere and genuine sense of danger more than compensated. I can even forgive the unconvincing hospital areas with their obvious 'filmed in a local building because we don't have the budget to create a large spaceship set' appearance. After all, as any fan of the classic series will say, it's the story that matters most! Once again the benefits of a two parter were evident, with more time for the story to unfold and for the tension to build, culminating with a cliffhanger that has left viewers keen to tune in to see the resolution.

I wonder if the unhappiness espoused by some with yet more gender-politicking at the beginning is due to the excess of 'Bill is gay' references earlier in the season? Unlike, for example, the scenes in Knock Knock and The Eaters of Light in which discussion of Bill's sexuality was completely superfluous to the story, the conversation about Missy formerly being male was necessary in this episode. Casual and newer viewers might well be unaware of her being the Master, so with the big John Simm reveal coming later it was a narrative requirement to establish this.

As so many have said, it was such a shame they revealed Simm's appearance in advance. It undermined what should have been a fantastic twist. It would have been better not to have revealed the Cybermen beforehand either. Sadly, it seems to be increasingly common these days with trailers both for TV and film. I do my best to avoid spoilers, but the makers seem intent on removing as many surprises as they can. It's such a shame.

With Doctor Who it's not as if revealing key elements is encouraging people to tune in, given the declining viewing figures. Perhaps the BBC should consider whether it would be more effective to avoid this. Imagine the buzz that would have been created if viewers didn't know the Master was going to appear!
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Re: Rate "World Enough and Time"

Postby The Wooksta! » Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:09 am

Plenty of good, lots of superb and genuinely chilling plus the usual Moffat "humour" which was annoying. The flashbacks and jump cuts were quite interesting. The whole look and the disconnect between the different areas of teh ship. The atmosphere was bang on. So much of this was how we expect the show to be, so much so that the only thing that really annoyed me - and I mean *REALLY* annoyed me - is WHY has it taken so long for Moffat to deliver something so iconic and outstanding as this. How much dross have we had to watch to get here?

It ticks all the right boxes with the body horror of the Cybermen which - Spare Parts aside - has never been done properly on TV. Tying the continuity together - Spare Parts, this and Tenth Planet - isn't one for me, although I could try and I'm sure it could be done. I just think that tying it together in the programme's allotted time would only alienate the average viewer.

To be honest, I've been waiting for them to bring back the original Cybermen, given the rebuilt costumes for "An Adventure in Time and Space" and Moffat seems to have done them proud. I'd go so far as saying it's the best cyber story since "The Invasion"

Simm seemed to be channelling Zathras from Babylon 5 for quite a bit, although he also seemed to be using Londo Mollari's voice. I hated his turn as the Master under RTD but here? Not seen enough yet but it is promising. Liked the Delgado style suit.

Will next week be as good? Somehow, I doubt it. Hell Bent was appalling compared to the superbness of Heaven Sent. And the trailer didn't inspire confidence.
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Re: Rate "World Enough and Time"

Postby Rob Ocelot » Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:34 am

Sid Rat wrote:As so many have said, it was such a shame they revealed Simm's appearance in advance. It undermined what should have been a fantastic twist. It would have been better not to have revealed the Cybermen beforehand either. Sadly, it seems to be increasingly common these days with trailers both for TV and film. I do my best to avoid spoilers, but the makers seem intent on removing as many surprises as they can. It's such a shame.


Marketing and publicity departments unfortunately have deluded themselves into thinking they are actually part of the TV making process. It's far easier to create fake drama and spoilerly teases outside of the show than it is to actually write compelling TV drama or Sci-fi within the context of the show. Energy that is better spent on making the show cohesive and enjoyable is wasted on fabricating lame "candid photos from the set" tweets, and dribbles of exclusives doled out to idiots with websites who are more than happy to do the BBC's marketing work for them because it makes them feel like they are part of the 'in' crowd.

You're right, it's really a shame. Think of the RTD run of episodes from HUMAN NATURE to UTOPIA. If I had known in advance that BLINK was a Doctorless episode I might have skipped it, to my detriment (the last such episode was a bit stinky). I tuned into HUMAN NATURE/FAMILY OF BLOOD based on the fact it was an adaptation of a terrific Virgin NA novel. It was such a well done two parter I stuck around and my socks were blown off by the one-two punch of BLINK and UTOPIA (and I had no idea the Master was returning).

If you have to rely on spoiled details to get people to tune in you're doing it the wrong way. I sincerely hope Chris Chibnal understands this and puts it into practice. Perhaps they shouldn't advertise where and when they are shooting so photos can't leak. Maybe actually venture outisde of Cardiff once in a while, or use more virtual sets.
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Re: Rate "World Enough and Time"

Postby Miss Cathcart » Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:07 am

I'm surprised at the number of people on here who say they liked this as it left me stone cold for most of the way through. The music was bloody awful and hardly let up (the best bits were the quieter scenes between Bill and that guy on the ship). I hated the "Doctor Who2 lines from Missy, who was back to her annoying self after being quite good in the previous few episodes (though she was better at the end). I felt nothing when the blue-headed guy shot Bill and while I didn't see it coming that the Cyberman (or should that be Cyberwoman?) was Bill, it didn't excite me either. As the Cybermen's and John Simm's appearances had already been trailed, there were no surprises either.

5/10.
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Re: Rate "World Enough and Time"

Postby lepter » Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:57 pm

I wonder if this colony ship left mondas early in its travels after leaving the solar system. Most stayed behind to struggle on mondas but a colony ship set off trying to find another planet, seeking to set up and then hopefully send word to Mondas. The black hole put paid to that, the time dilation meaning the time of the universe passed much slower on the ship than on mondas away from the black hole.
The colony ship occupants followed a similar path to mondas in converting to cybermen but the timeframe of Tenth planet is happening at a different time than the colony ship. Time has slowed on the ship. This means tenth planet and the non Canon spare parts can still happen and not be affected by the continuity change.

Will the ship escape and be found by modern cybermen or will the time dilation on different levels mean cyber conversion happens at a different pace. I think of the people that left for the next section but never returned. Why is the master there disguised? How did he escape rassilon? Why does missy not remember the ship if she had spent years there before with bill? Was it a plot by her to get to the ship to rescue the John simm master, safeguarding his own future? Who knows.....Moffat will not use any of these ideas....and have the magical sonic screw driver magic themselves out, restoring bill back to making chips and missy swapping dresses with the doctor with makeup tips.
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Re: Rate "World Enough and Time"

Postby -JMW- » Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:41 pm

lepter wrote:Moffat will not use any of these ideas

You may have hit on why it's sometimes so frustrating....when we set up these imaginary situations, we may be bound to be disappointed by the actuality. That said, I'm surprised that so many of those who normally despise the show liked this episode...I suppose it's down to revisiting an archive enemy (or two, if we count Simm) and roughly reproducing them as in the first experience. It's a novelty that should probably be used sparingly.

I don't care whether a sonic device will be involved- it's merely a way to expedite that which might take longer.

Will Bill be saved? I don't have a preference to see companions die, but if they do as part of the narrative that's just fine. If Bill is saved that does not necessarily mean it's an anticlimax....most of Doctor Who old and new had the companions surviving against "certain doob" - many a cliffhanger seemed like they were about to meet their end.

I'm trying to have no preconceived notions...just going along for the ride and see how it falls together.
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Re: Rate "World Enough and Time"

Postby johnshoo » Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:00 pm

Why was the Master disguised? Well, he did allude to his period as Harold Saxon, but I think it basically comes down to what he said afterwards: He likes disguises.
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Re: Rate "World Enough and Time"

Postby lepter » Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:10 pm

-JMW- wrote:
lepter wrote:Moffat will not use any of these ideas

You may have hit on why it's sometimes so frustrating....when we set up these imaginary situations, we may be bound to be disappointed by the actuality. That said, I'm surprised that so many of those who normally despise the show liked this episode...I suppose it's down to revisiting an archive enemy (or two, if we count Simm) and roughly reproducing them as in the first experience. It's a novelty that should probably be used sparingly.

I don't care whether a sonic device will be involved- it's merely a way to expedite that which might take longer.

Will Bill be saved? I don't have a preference to see companions die, but if they do as part of the narrative that's just fine. If Bill is saved that does not necessarily mean it's an anticlimax....most of Doctor Who old and new had the companions surviving against "certain doob" - many a cliffhanger seemed like they were about to meet their end.

I'm trying to have no preconceived notions...just going along for the ride and see how it falls together.

Yeah....I get what ya saying. I didn't think this would be an origin story though and it looks to be being portrayed that way. It's like the davros kid. It's a good idea but doesn't fit with the feel of genesis of the daleks. If this is an origin story.....how does this fit with tenth planet? Of course we are talking about this having seen half a story. Maybe we should hold judgment until next Saturday. This does have shades of Danny pink being cybered in the penultimate episode of last season. Did love the first Cyberman though. Perfect modern version....like the ice warriors.
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Re: Rate "World Enough and Time"

Postby Tobias Vaughan » Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:13 pm

Timeloopy wrote:10/10

Can not fault it at all 10/10 in every aspect, exactly the kind of story I crave with such great production, direction, acting and humour to round it off.

My fear is that part 2 will not live up to it as the second part of a finale almost never does but hope springs eternal.

Anyone else notice the difference between the regeneration at the start of the show has him on the snow and in the next time trailer he is on grass? What does this mean I wonder.

possibly he staggers into the tardis from the grass,travels, and burts out into the snowy scene? or perhaps missy also regenerates she is dressed almost identically in this episode

Edit: or perhaps Simm becomes Missy? :lol:
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Re: Rate "World Enough and Time"

Postby lepter » Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:30 pm

Tobias Vaughan wrote:
Timeloopy wrote:10/10

Can not fault it at all 10/10 in every aspect, exactly the kind of story I crave with such great production, direction, acting and humour to round it off.

My fear is that part 2 will not live up to it as the second part of a finale almost never does but hope springs eternal.

Anyone else notice the difference between the regeneration at the start of the show has him on the snow and in the next time trailer he is on grass? What does this mean I wonder.

possibly he staggers into the tardis from the grass,travels, and burts out into the snowy scene? or perhaps missy also regenerates she is dressed almost identically in this episode

Edit: or perhaps Simm becomes Missy? :lol:

Missy is leaving though.....is this capaldis last episode or is it Christmas?
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Re: Rate "World Enough and Time"

Postby -JMW- » Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:06 pm

lepter wrote:
Tobias Vaughan wrote:
Timeloopy wrote:10/10

Can not fault it at all 10/10 in every aspect, exactly the kind of story I crave with such great production, direction, acting and humour to round it off.

My fear is that part 2 will not live up to it as the second part of a finale almost never does but hope springs eternal.

Anyone else notice the difference between the regeneration at the start of the show has him on the snow and in the next time trailer he is on grass? What does this mean I wonder.

possibly he staggers into the tardis from the grass,travels, and burts out into the snowy scene? or perhaps missy also regenerates she is dressed almost identically in this episode

Edit: or perhaps Simm becomes Missy? :lol:

Missy is leaving though.....is this capaldis last episode or is it Christmas?

Steven Moffat's last show is Xmas...so, unless Xmas is Doctor-lite...I presume he'll be in it.
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Re: Rate "World Enough and Time"

Postby johnnybear » Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:06 pm

I thought the Cyberman calling out the word pain was very good and creepy and I sort of guessed that Stemar (I'm sure they called him that) was The Master as I used to detect The Ainley Master every time he appeared in disguise in the eighties! Plus Simm's voice came through every now and then too. I agree that this story is a Moffat try out to get a woman cast as The next Doctor with all it's mentions of gender swapping and the like.
I didn't see any sign of David Bradley as The First Doctor so I doubt a Delgadoesque Master will appear either next week. But the Doctor Who bits were cringe worthy indeed and it seemed like another of Moffat's attacks on us long term fans but we all know that Moffat cannot write a satisfactory conclusion to any of his finals! The Pandorica was a good episode let down by the next episode same as Hell Bent but I wasn't that taken by that story either!
At least we know it's the end of Moffat and good bloody riddance to him and his version of the series! :evil:
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Re: Rate "World Enough and Time"

Postby shuzbot » Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:27 pm

Bill is from Earth so would she still be a Mondasian Cyberman or the first Terran Cyberman? Did anyone else think Bill's Cyberman literal coming out a closet was a visual pun? Racheal Talalay is an excellent director with a powerful sense of visual storytelling.
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Re: Rate "World Enough and Time"

Postby lepter » Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:10 pm

-JMW- wrote:
lepter wrote:
Tobias Vaughan wrote:
Timeloopy wrote:10/10

Can not fault it at all 10/10 in every aspect, exactly the kind of story I crave with such great production, direction, acting and humour to round it off.

My fear is that part 2 will not live up to it as the second part of a finale almost never does but hope springs eternal.

Anyone else notice the difference between the regeneration at the start of the show has him on the snow and in the next time trailer he is on grass? What does this mean I wonder.

possibly he staggers into the tardis from the grass,travels, and burts out into the snowy scene? or perhaps missy also regenerates she is dressed almost identically in this episode

Edit: or perhaps Simm becomes Missy? :lol:

Missy is leaving though.....is this capaldis last episode or is it Christmas?

Steven Moffat's last show is Xmas...so, unless Xmas is Doctor-lite...I presume he'll be in it.

unless the christmas episode is the first new doctors story. a curve ball. Showing the doctor regenerating in the snow is a posibility but its probably just like all the other fake regens moffat likes to throw in.
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Re: Rate "World Enough and Time"

Postby Tobias Vaughan » Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:58 pm

lepter wrote:
Tobias Vaughan wrote:
Timeloopy wrote:10/10

Can not fault it at all 10/10 in every aspect, exactly the kind of story I crave with such great production, direction, acting and humour to round it off.

My fear is that part 2 will not live up to it as the second part of a finale almost never does but hope springs eternal.

Anyone else notice the difference between the regeneration at the start of the show has him on the snow and in the next time trailer he is on grass? What does this mean I wonder.

possibly he staggers into the tardis from the grass,travels, and burts out into the snowy scene? or perhaps missy also regenerates she is dressed almost identically in this episode

Edit: or perhaps Simm becomes Missy? :lol:

Missy is leaving though.....is this capaldis last episode or is it Christmas?
I haven't a clue,i have been so busy with kids football i've managed to stay relatively spoiler free this series and have enjoyed it all the better for it
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Re: Rate "World Enough and Time"

Postby iank » Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:02 am

Moffat is doing the Xmas special so it's definitely Capaldi. No way would he be allowed to write for Chibnall's new Doctor before he does!
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