Is Violence the Answer?

For discussion of series 10 of Doctor Who starring Peter Capaldi

Is Violence the Answer?

Postby thecypher » Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:36 am

iank wrote:
shuzbot wrote:Historicals to return and new Tardis design :o

http://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/chan ... s-11309547


It doesn't say anything about pure historicals, so "historicals" in New Who have never gone away, have they? :?


And historicals in NuWho just involve Peter Capaldi punching people for having racist attitudes which were contemporary at the time :lol:
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Re: Is Violence the answer?

Postby -JMW- » Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:45 pm

thecypher wrote:And historicals in NuWho just involve Peter Capaldi punching people for having racist attitudes which were contemporary at the time :lol:

The Doctor has always looked down on people for not adhering to his own moral values...and generally those values are derived from the producer...who derives his/her values from contemporary mores.

Hence the third Doctor's disgust with the Brig at the end of Silurians, despite the Doc chop-suing everything in site.

Of course the real reason the Doctor gravitates towards humans at all (despite their frailties) is that the audience is comprised (mostly) of humans.
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Re: Is Violence the answer?

Postby thecypher » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:16 pm

-JMW- wrote:
thecypher wrote:And historicals in NuWho just involve Peter Capaldi punching people for having racist attitudes which were contemporary at the time :lol:

The Doctor has always looked down on people for not adhering to his own moral values...and generally those values are derived from the producer...who derives his/her values from contemporary mores.

Hence the third Doctor's disgust with the Brig at the end of Silurians, despite the Doc chop-suing everything in site.

Of course the real reason the Doctor gravitates towards humans at all (despite their frailties) is that the audience is comprised (mostly) of humans.


Yeah, I remember when The Doctor punched the Brig for blowing up the Silurians.. oh, and that time he lamped Shakespeare for being racist to Martha. It's one thing to frown upon an attitude you deem to be backwards and abhorrent, but another to take to violence because of it. It is uncharacteristic of The Doctor to be so violent, and lack an understanding of why he was racist to Bill.

We can blame Sarah Dolland and furthermore, Steven Moffat - for pushing an agenda and trying to lecture us on how racism is naughty. If Chibnall pushes the agenda further, he's going to start losing viewers in spades.

To quote The 10th Doctor:

It's political correctness gone mad.
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Re: Is Violence the answer?

Postby -JMW- » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:32 pm

thecypher wrote:It is uncharacteristic of The Doctor to be so violent

Ten moments of "shocking" violence perpetrated by the Doctor:

1. An Unearthly Child
The original and the best. The First Doctor is stopped by Ian, seconds before he stoves in the head of a wounded caveman with a rock.

2. The Dominators
The Second Doctor places a nuclear device on the Dominators' ship, blowing them out of the sky.

3. Inferno
The Third Doctor smilingly explains to the Brigadier than the Venusian grip he has applied to Stahlman will soon paralyse him for life. Similar venusian chops, kicks and jabs pepper the Third Doctor's era.

4. Day of the Daleks
The Doctor casually blasts an approaching Ogron, blowing Ten's 'be the man who never would' speech out of the water.

5. The Brain of Morbius
The Fourth Doctor gasses Solon with cyanide, in a move that could easily have left him and Sarah sealed in a crypt forever.

6. The Seeds of Doom
Four punches out a henchman with a thinly-disguised relish. Later on he twists Scorby's neck, as if to break it, after punching him in the gut.

7. Arc of Infinity
The Fifth Doctor simply shoots Omega.

8. The Twin Dilemma
The Sixth Doctor tries to strangle Peri to death.

9. Vengeance on Varos
Take your pick. Doc Six maneuvers two guards into a BATH OF ACID and leaves two different booby traps involving stinging plants and a laser to kill two cannibals and a guard.

10. The Two Doctors
The Sixth Doctor chloroforms Shockeye to death.

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Re: Is Violence the answer?

Postby thecypher » Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:52 pm

-JMW- wrote:
thecypher wrote:It is uncharacteristic of The Doctor to be so violent

Ten moments of "shocking" violence perpetrated by the Doctor:


I was speaking in reference to punching someone in the face because he had an attitude that you'd expect from someone in that time period. As I said - he didn't punch Shakespeare, did he?

Even then, the violence you described is rare. It's not like he punches his enemy in every episode, is it? Jon Pertwee was trained in karate - and as such the writers wrote that into his performance as The Doctor. Sixie was suffering from post-regeneration trauma when he strangled Peri. The writers had to be careful when writing violence in for The Doctor - and when they did, Mary Whitehouse would be right up their ass.
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Re: Is Violence the answer?

Postby -JMW- » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:05 am

thecypher wrote:
-JMW- wrote:
thecypher wrote:It is uncharacteristic of The Doctor to be so violent

Ten moments of "shocking" violence perpetrated by the Doctor:


I was speaking in reference to punching someone in the face because he had an attitude that you'd expect from someone in that time period. As I said - he didn't punch Shakespeare, did he?

Even then, the violence you described is rare. It's not like he punches his enemy in every episode, is it?

But he doesn't punch someone in the face in every episode now either. What you seem to be doing is extrapolating a particular event as an example to falsely demonstrate that it exemplifies the whole.

Time-traveller attitude being restricted to emulation of the era with which they're currently in seems daft. Instant reactions (such as a punch) are unlikely to be planned by the character, so not restricted in the way you seem to want them to be.

As I've explained, the producers and writers have often attributed their story-telling style to personal belief and contemporary mores (including Barry Letts with his Buddhist leanings, Phillip Hinchcliffe with his Gothic spin, Chris Bidmead and his adherence to the technological, Peter Bryant with the B-movie style etc).

You seem shocked that producers are able, and would want to, put their own spin on the show....or rather one producer in particular. The prejudice I can understand (I don't agree, but I understand). The narrow perspective based on this bias is false though - it's just hate/blame for the sake of it, without thinking through the comparisons it draws.
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Re: Is Violence the answer?

Postby shuzbot » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:10 am

Why would the Doctor be punching Shakespeare in the face?
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Re: Is Violence the answer?

Postby thecypher » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:24 am

shuzbot wrote:Why would the Doctor be punching Shakespeare in the face?

The Shakespeare Code wrote:SHAKESPEARE: Psychic? Never heard that before and words are my trade. Who are you exactly? More's the point, who is your delicious blackamoor lady?
MARTHA: What did you say?
SHAKESPEARE: Oops. Isn't that a word we use nowadays? An Ethiop girl? A swarth? A Queen of Afric?
MARTHA: I can't believe I'm hearing this.
DOCTOR: It's political correctness gone mad. Er, Martha's from a far-off land. Freedonia.


Martha's reaction to Shakespeare being racist is understandable, but she soon lets it go (I assume she comes to understand that was the attitude at the time) - and The Doctor just plays it off casually because he knows that is a contemporary attitude.

Bill being overly shocked and Twelve punching that racist guy in the face is a continuity error of sorts. If he punches that guy in the face, why didn't he punch Shakespeare in the face for being racist as well?

My initial point, JMW, wasn't whether The Doctor is violent or not, but whether this is just one example of how Doctor Who has been turned into a politicised lecture on what opinions we should hold:

- Doctor punches racist dude
- "Some of my friends are blue"
- Bill tells people she is gay
- Bill tells people she is gay.. again
- Bill tells peo-

Okay look you get the picture.

Actually, my initial point wasn't a point at all. It was a joke.
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Re: Is Violence the answer?

Postby shuzbot » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:31 am

thecypher wrote:Actually, my initial point wasn't a point at all. It was a joke.


People often try and make a point with a joke, they aren't mutually exclusive. Besides, if you don't think he should be punching lord shit-face then why have him punch Shakespeare who clearly wasn't berating Martha and he probably punched him more the aggresive over the top manner - or is that OK as long as you aren't racist?
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Re: Is Violence the answer?

Postby iank » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:42 am

Since when does the Doctor go around punching anyone just because he disagrees with them?
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Re: Is Violence the Answer?

Postby shuzbot » Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:28 pm

That's right. It's uncivilized. He should just shoot them instead :P
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Re: Is Violence the Answer?

Postby LizR » Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:32 pm

It depends what the question is.

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