Sherlock (BBC TV Series).

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Re: Sherlock series 2

Postby chasersbass » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:57 pm

Anybody spot the Dialog and plot reference to The Moonbase?
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Re: Sherlock series 2

Postby image45 » Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:42 pm

I thought that 'A Scandal in Belgravia' Was excellent, whoever 'The Hounds of Baskerville' was not to my viewing taste sadly. I do love the original script concept a lot more so I guess this might have reduce my viewing enjoyment sadly,.

Next week looks very good so lets hope it meets all expectations please.
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Re: Sherlock series 2

Postby LizR » Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:48 pm

chasersbass wrote:Anybody spot the Dialog and plot reference to The Moonbase?

I don't think so, although I do remember spotting something - can't remember what it was now though. (I think the one I spotted was "When I say run..." actually...)

Quite enjoyed that. I liked the way it was true to the original in a fairly abstract sort of sense, as well as in the scariness - a successful updating, IMHO. (Not sure how the corner of the cage in the lab got bent outwards, unless Watson imagined that...)

Mind you the Mystery writers' association (or whatever it's called) banned the central plot device many years ago - along with hidden panels and untraceable poisons, etc - as unfair to the reader (viewer).

I think the ending was intended as a lead in to next week's?
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Re: Sherlock series 2

Postby chasersbass » Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:29 pm

" its in the sugar, thats why it it doesn't affect some people because not everyone takes it" a discarded theory by sherlock
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Re: Sherlock series 2

Postby Zarius » Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:46 pm

That was a nifty little end to the current status quoe. Liked that "The Final Problem" turned out to be existence itself

What did Molly do for Sherlock? She sort of dissapeared after he said he wanted her...I'm guessing that whatever she did had something to do with him surviving that fall. When the paramedics spirited him away, I figured they may have been agents of Mycroft (as in the original books, Mycroft is fully aware Sherlock is alive and keeps him in hiding).

No telling where the series goes now...if he resurfaces, he'll be regarded as a disgraced carny and dismissed from any case possible, obviously he'll have to solve mysteries under assumed names for as long as this continues.

It'll be nice to see the show completly free of Moriarty's influence now, as only one episode so far has had no ties to him (Hound). Looking forward to the next batch, whenever they are.
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Re: Sherlock series 2

Postby chap with wings » Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:30 am

Very good episode, best by far this serires.
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Re: Sherlock series 2

Postby The Nimon » Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:32 pm

Zarius wrote:That was a nifty little end to the current status quoe. Liked that "The Final Problem" turned out to be existence itself

What did Molly do for Sherlock? She sort of dissapeared after he said he wanted her...I'm guessing that whatever she did had something to do with him surviving that fall. When the paramedics spirited him away, I figured they may have been agents of Mycroft (as in the original books, Mycroft is fully aware Sherlock is alive and keeps him in hiding).

No telling where the series goes now...if he resurfaces, he'll be regarded as a disgraced carny and dismissed from any case possible, obviously he'll have to solve mysteries under assumed names for as long as this continues.

It'll be nice to see the show completly free of Moriarty's influence now, as only one episode so far has had no ties to him (Hound). Looking forward to the next batch, whenever they are.


Well the story after the Final problem, Not counting Hound that followed straight on, was called the Empty House. It told of Homes chasing after Moriarty's right hand man. After that Holmes was back to normal helping the Police so i'm guessing something like that will happen. Holmes turns up at Watson's and tells him he only thought he saw him fall.

Series 3 has been announced today so it's just a case of when it'll be made :D
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Re: Sherlock series 2

Postby The Nimon » Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:34 pm

Excellent ending to a brilliant series, looking forward to series 3 next year :)
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Re: Sherlock series 2

Postby Zarius » Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:03 pm

The Nimon wrote:Well the story after the Final problem, Not counting Hound that followed straight on, was called the Empty House. It told of Homes chasing after Moriarty's right hand man. After that Holmes was back to normal helping the Police so i'm guessing something like that will happen.


Yeah, but Doyle's Holmes never quite had his name dragged down in the gutter and tarnished to the degree it was here, which is what makes this story differ so much from TFP. Whilst I don't think we've seen the last of Holmes working with the police, it will take, I imagine, a long time for him to earn their trust, hence why I think he will move on to simply operating from the shadows or with Mycroft's agency.
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Re: Sherlock series 2

Postby markhuk » Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:38 pm

Zarius wrote:Yeah, but Doyle's Holmes never quite had his name dragged down in the gutter and tarnished to the degree it was here, which is what makes this story differ so much from TFP. Whilst I don't think we've seen the last of Holmes working with the police, it will take, I imagine, a long time for him to earn their trust, hence why I think he will move on to simply operating from the shadows or with Mycroft's agency.


Unlikely

Its not how it happened in the books
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Re: Sherlock series 2

Postby Zarius » Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:03 pm

But this ISNT 100% faithful to the books is it?
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Re: Sherlock series 2

Postby markhuk » Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:35 pm

No its not 100% faithful to the books - but it is VERY faithful to the spirit of the original stories and at no time in the original stories did the outline that you suggest happen, I therefore think, after watching the previous two series, that it is unlikely that the writers will suddenly start making up their own plots and ignore the template set down by ACD.
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Re: Sherlock series 2

Postby image45 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:39 pm

Zarius wrote:But this ISNT 100% faithful to the books is it?


No, however not many TV version of stories once made/wrote for release as a book do not often make it to stage or screen in the original page for page concept.
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Re: Sherlock series 2

Postby image45 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:41 pm

Zarius wrote:That was a nifty little end to the current status quoe. Liked that "The Final Problem" turned out to be existence itself

What did Molly do for Sherlock? She sort of dissapeared after he said he wanted her...I'm guessing that whatever she did had something to do with him surviving that fall.


Yes I was just covering this with a friend that lacks your forward thinking, well done :)
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Re: Sherlock series 2

Postby The Nimon » Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:25 pm

image45 wrote:
Zarius wrote:That was a nifty little end to the current status quoe. Liked that "The Final Problem" turned out to be existence itself

What did Molly do for Sherlock? She sort of dissapeared after he said he wanted her...I'm guessing that whatever she did had something to do with him surviving that fall.


Yes I was just covering this with a friend that lacks your forward thinking, well done :)


There's also the point of him asking Watson to stand in a specific place where his view was slightly obscured Watson's view of the ground. I'm guessing the person on the bike that knocked Watson over has something to do with the answer as well, maybe to slow him down while what ever Holmes landed on was moved away.
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Re: Sherlock series 2

Postby LizR » Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:29 pm

That was gripping, entertaining and well characterised - I still think Moffat is far better suited to this than Who 8-) - but with a few caveats...

Moriarty! The very first time I saw him, I assumed he was an actor hired by the real Moriarty. Maybe he was. You don't get to the top of the criminal underworld* at a tender age and mad as a box of frogs, so he seems about as unlikely a Moriarty as, say, John Simm playing the Master (I know, ridiculous idea...) So that needs to be explained...

And would Holmes really be fooled by the old "few lines of code" trick? Surely he's hip to everything computer related? That whole side of the story smacked of the woeful super-weapon with coloured water (or whatever it was) in SOD-U-LOTT that the rebels were supposedly hunting for, or building, or fooling the Master with, or something (I'm not going to rewatch it to find out exactly what it was for). So nil points for belief suspension on that one, unless it's all tied up neatly in the first episode of the 3rd series.

Assuming that was indeed supposed to be JM, then he fell into what looked like an obvious trap - SH decided where to meet, and presumably it wasn't just coincidence it was a tall building, but an elaborate charade so that SH could "commit suicide" - presumably as he'd deduced JM wanted him to. But it's all very tangled, and will require explanation, so I hope that's forthcoming. Also an explanation for how the 1st series cliffhanger was resolved (phone call from the real Moriarty, perhaps?) wouldn't come amiss.

Much as I'd like JM to be out of the picture for good, I would prefer it if that turned out to have been an actor who died, over whom the real JM had some hold (after all he thought he could get SH to kill himself, so he could easily do the same to Richard Brook). I wouldn't be surprised if JM is going to be an ongoing antagonist, but who knows...?

Other than that, and so long as you aren't too precious about the original, I still think this is an excellent updating.

*OK I know the Krays managed to get fairly high in the criminal underworld by their late 20s, but Moriarty is supposed to be the equal of Holmes, and the Krays were banged up for life pretty swiftly. I'd still expect JM to be older and less flaky if he's going to be at all credible.
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Re: Sherlock series 2

Postby LizR » Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:21 pm

Well, I'm still hoping that wasn't really JM...
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Re: Sherlock series 2

Postby LizR » Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:40 am

I enthused about Sherlock on another forum and got this reply. I wondered if anyone had any comments on this view? Admittedly the writer isn't here to defend himself but I'd be interested in any comments. This seems about the most "glass half empty" stance one can take (mine being, as usual, the opposite).

LizR wrote:Certainly makes you want to see the next series to find out what really happened. Hopefully with no timey-wimey stuff involved...!

I guess it must make some people want to see what happened when the next series starts, but not the rest of us. Two reasons make it a matter of complete disinterest to me.

The first is that the entire 90m that led to the cliffhanger was an exercise in predictability (and not in a good way). From the first moment I read the mangled title "The Reichenbach Fall", the episode was nothing more than ticking the boxes of futile predictability. The only time it showed promise was with Moriarty pretending to be an actor (something that's been done in a previous Holmes adventure), but it was obvious that they wouldn't have the guts to continue with that possibility. And the only time the thing became watchable was when Holmes and Watson did their Curtis and Poitier bit.

The second is that, this is a Mofftiss production. Moffat has a history of not thinking through resolutions to his stories (even if they are written by others for his series). This is the guy that strung River Song along for so long because he couldn't resolve his own character! If he had no idea about his own character, then he certainly has no idea now. You can bet your last penny that if you've put two seconds of thought into figuring out the resolution, then that's two seconds longer than Moffat will put into it. No matter what logical, sensible, intelligent reason and way you can come up with to resolve it, Moffat will run with something that makes no sense and has no logical progression whatsoever - just because it "looks clever".

It's not that Cucumberpatch is a bad Holmes, anymore than Robert Downey JR was a bad Holmes. He just doesn't have strong story-tellers behind him. Those writing for the character are not writing for Sherlock Holmes. Mofftiss must be frustrated to the ends of the Earth that they can't sell their own characters, ideas, and stories to the BBC and so they have to keep warping someone else's creation to fit completely incompatible characters and stories.

I, personally, can't generate any more enthusiasm for the next series of Sherlock than I can for the next series of nooWHO. They're both modernist gutter nonsense but, sadly, that's the best the BBC can do in 2012. How far they have fallen.
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Re: Sherlock series 2

Postby LizR » Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:50 am

He stayed dead until public protest forced Conan Doyle to resurrect him, if I remember correctly. First, after Holmes "died", ACD wrote "The Hound of the Baskervilles" which was set before "The Final Problem" and hence was a "legitimate" Holmes story in that the detective could remain "dead" - but then he relented and revealed that Holmes hadn't died after all. And then he went on to write some of his best stories.... A fate curiously copied by Ian Fleming over 50 years later, who killed off James Bond in "From Russia with love" - also giving him a formidable antagonist - and then relented, brought him back to life, and went on to write some of his best stories.

Oddly enough I consider the quintessentially English heroes to be...

Sherlock Holmes
James Bond*
and
Doctor Who**

...all of whom have died and been resurrected, as it were.

*OK, I admit that Bond is actually half Scottish and half Swiss.
**You know who I mean. And I admit he's really from some place 250 million light years away.
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Re: Sherlock series 2

Postby The Nimon » Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:10 pm

LizR wrote:I enthused about Sherlock on another forum and got this reply. I wondered if anyone had any comments on this view? Admittedly the writer isn't here to defend himself but I'd be interested in any comments. This seems about the most "glass half empty" stance one can take (mine being, as usual, the opposite).

LizR wrote:Certainly makes you want to see the next series to find out what really happened. Hopefully with no timey-wimey stuff involved...!

I guess it must make some people want to see what happened when the next series starts, but not the rest of us. Two reasons make it a matter of complete disinterest to me.

The first is that the entire 90m that led to the cliffhanger was an exercise in predictability (and not in a good way). From the first moment I read the mangled title "The Reichenbach Fall", the episode was nothing more than ticking the boxes of futile predictability. The only time it showed promise was with Moriarty pretending to be an actor (something that's been done in a previous Holmes adventure), but it was obvious that they wouldn't have the guts to continue with that possibility. And the only time the thing became watchable was when Holmes and Watson did their Curtis and Poitier bit.

The second is that, this is a Mofftiss production. Moffat has a history of not thinking through resolutions to his stories (even if they are written by others for his series). This is the guy that strung River Song along for so long because he couldn't resolve his own character! If he had no idea about his own character, then he certainly has no idea now. You can bet your last penny that if you've put two seconds of thought into figuring out the resolution, then that's two seconds longer than Moffat will put into it. No matter what logical, sensible, intelligent reason and way you can come up with to resolve it, Moffat will run with something that makes no sense and has no logical progression whatsoever - just because it "looks clever".

It's not that Cucumberpatch is a bad Holmes, anymore than Robert Downey JR was a bad Holmes. He just doesn't have strong story-tellers behind him. Those writing for the character are not writing for Sherlock Holmes. Mofftiss must be frustrated to the ends of the Earth that they can't sell their own characters, ideas, and stories to the BBC and so they have to keep warping someone else's creation to fit completely incompatible characters and stories.

I, personally, can't generate any more enthusiasm for the next series of Sherlock than I can for the next series of nooWHO. They're both modernist gutter nonsense but, sadly, that's the best the BBC can do in 2012. How far they have fallen.


I can see 2 faults with the persons post.
1) Moriarty never pretended to be an actor in any of the stories he was in in the Doyle cannon. Maybe he had in one of the many non Doyle stories that have followed but this series is based on the original stuff, Not the spin off stuff
2) Of course the lead up to the ending of this story was predictable. Anyone who pays any interest in the stories of Sherlock Holmes knows that he seems to die at the end of The Final Problem, which this story was based on. What else are they going to do?
Sorry to say this but this person has a really poor grip on what goes into telling a story. His comment, 'This is the guy that strung River Song along for so long because he couldn't resolve his own character!' goes to prove this. From the start of series 5, when he set up Amy Pond, he knew she was going to be River's mother and where he was going with River. Everything from Amy coming into 'The 11th Hour' led up to the cliffhanger of 'A good man goes to war'. When writing a who done it, you don't reveal who did it on page one, you build the story and the mystery up over however long the story is, droping in clues and so fourth throughout the story that the reader may or maynot pick up on on first reading.
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