SPECTRE and other James Bond stuff

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Re: SPECTRE and other James Bond stuff

Postby 'teleportNOW!' » Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:38 pm

bobmcpherson wrote:No offense Feline but if I need a "woman to explain" Craig's "performance" then something is SERIOUSLY wrong with THAT performance. It is like saying I need a sailor preferably a Seaman 2 Class to explain Julie Andrews performance in MARY POPPINS.


What I was trying to say diplomatically was that perhaps you have insufficient gaydar to pick up on some of the flirtatious subtlety of Craig's performance.

It's a pity you never watched Quantum of Solace because from a political angle is deals quite nicely with some of the AMERICAN threat to global safety :lol: (i.e. yet another CIA-sponsored coup in a Latin American state)
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Re: SPECTRE and other James Bond stuff

Postby LizR » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:11 am

The Nimon wrote:The Spy Who Loves Me has nothing to do with the book at all, apart from the title. This is mainly down to Fleming not letting them so they used the title and made a totally original story.

I'm not sure how Fleming managed that as he'd been dead 13 years, I'm guessing it was his estate? :D

However TSWLM the novel would have been a useless Bond film anyway. It's OK as a standalone novel, with Bond as an (almost) incidental character ... I don't think Fleming wrote any bad novels, but TSWLM is very different from all the other Bonds, and in no way would it have made a traditional Bond film. It's more like a "base under siege from a few thugs" story than the usual travelogue with criminal mastermind + henchpeople.
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Re: SPECTRE and other James Bond stuff

Postby 'teleportNOW!' » Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:48 am

I think Fleming sold the film rights to all his books in the early 60s before he died? He did one or two to begin with (hence the odd Casino Royale, and all that Thunderball malarkey) but then he did a deal for all the rest with Brocoli & Saltzman. Something like that. But specified not to do The Spy Who Loved Me.
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Re: SPECTRE and other James Bond stuff

Postby LizR » Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:08 pm

feline1 wrote:I think Fleming sold the film rights to all his books in the early 60s before he died? He did one or two to begin with (hence the odd Casino Royale, and all that Thunderball malarkey) but then he did a deal for all the rest with Brocoli & Saltzman. Something like that. But specified not to do The Spy Who Loved Me.

That would explain it. Can't say I blame him, either. TSWLM was a bit of a failed experiment, in my opinion (and I think his, as well as public opinion, I imagine).
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Re: SPECTRE and other James Bond stuff

Postby 'teleportNOW!' » Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:08 pm

I think Fleming sold the film rights to all his books in the early 60s before he died? He did one or two to begin with (hence the odd Casino Royale, and all that Thunderball malarkey) but then he did a deal for all the rest with Brocoli & Saltzman. Something like that. But specified not to do The Spy Who Loved Me.
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Re: SPECTRE and other James Bond stuff

Postby bobmcpherson » Wed Jul 29, 2015 4:30 pm

feline1 wrote:
bobmcpherson wrote:No offense Feline but if I need a "woman to explain" Craig's "performance" then something is SERIOUSLY wrong with THAT performance. It is like saying I need a sailor preferably a Seaman 2 Class to explain Julie Andrews performance in MARY POPPINS.


What I was trying to say diplomatically was that perhaps you have insufficient gaydar to pick up on some of the flirtatious subtlety of Craig's performance.)


A couple of thoughts.

1) If someone has to be Gay, straight, Bisexual or whatever to "understand" a performance then something is wrong with the performance.

2) I do not buy..........whether it is coming from the Gays or the feminists or Foucoult or Derrida or ANYONE the secret powers argument of Artistic/Historical etc etc criticism. Either something is there and well expressed or it is badly expressed or not expressed at all or not there at all. I REALLY have no patience with the Secret Gaydar power theory. Some of the biggest morons I have encountered in my life have been homosexuals. Being Gay does not automatically bestow intelligence.

3) Montgomery Clift was a homosexual. He was excellent in JUDGEMENT AT NUREMBERG and RED RIVER and THE BIG LIFT. He stank to high heaven in THE DEFECTOR and RAINTREE COUNTY. What he did with his binky had nothing to do with it. Ian Mckellan annoys me no end offscreen. Onscreen he could read a telephone directory and make it sound like Shakespeare. George Takai was a GREAT Mr Sulu. In real life, he is an evil son of a............

4) I have no idea what Daniel Craig thinks he is doing. James Bond is a secret agent of the old very very British Empire school. Sort of like a cross between Bulldog Drummond and Richard Hannay. While Dalton nailed the character, Connery, Moore, Lazenby and Brosnan still embodied recognizable aspects of the character. Whenever I see Craig, I am reminded of Robert Shaw as Red Grant in FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE or Hans from YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE or Stomper from TOMORROW NEVER DIES. I never once think of James Bond.

5) It well may be that the type of man James Bond is no longer exists in England and would be viewed with the disdain that Biggles and much of Classic British literature appears to be held in today. THAT is a great pity and a great loss. It VERY well may be that James Bond should be retired.........and frankly since Craig took over, he has been. They could very easily have the next Bond be Black or a woman....or even have that actress who plays Moneypenny now take over the part because right now? James Bond is just a name. It has no meaning. He has been deconstructed....which is liberalese for destroyed.

Like The Master incidentally.
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Re: SPECTRE and other James Bond stuff

Postby bobmcpherson » Wed Jul 29, 2015 4:41 pm

The original plan incidentally for THE SPY WHO LOVED ME was for it to be a SPECTRE movie with Stromberg as Blofeld. It was supposedly to open with a purge of the old SPECTRE hierarchy to be replaced with Beider-Meinhof, Weathermen, Black September, Red Brigades types. Along with the eternal lawsuit, this was nixed finally as being too political.........don't want to offend any terrorists out there.

However if you listen to some of Curt Jurgens' dialogue AND the hatred which Bond dispatches him near the end, you can see bits of that stuff still present. Stromberg as Blofeld was why they mentioned Bond's wife for the first time since MAJESTY to remind the viewer.

The basic plot of Bond and the Reds learning to join together to fight the REAL enemy.........I think was probably lifted from COLONEL SUN. It is the first time it appears in the films.........
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Re: SPECTRE and other James Bond stuff

Postby 'teleportNOW!' » Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:11 pm

Bob, Britain still exists, it evolves, it's not the same as it was 50 years ago but it is still very much Britain. The majority of people living here know that and revel in it and what you'll see in a Bond film today is a fun celebration of a lot of that modern "Britishness", I'd say that's a lof of the reason why Bond films are still so popular here.

Dalton's Bond was never that popular cos he just didn't have the humour in there, he was taking playing it too straight. The Bond films have always had a healthy dose of self-aware irony. There's always tons in Bond stories of stuff that's just class ettiquette & manner, "posh people wear clothes like this, eat food like this, order drinks like that, speak to waiters in this tone" etc etc - most ordinary people in Britain *don't* do any of those things but have an awareness of it. Bond's on screen character is nearly always on the cusp of getting his behaviour just right but also taking the piss out it. If he didn't do that he's just be an overbearing tory git and most people would hate him.
A lot of the reason Sean Connery was such a success in the role is because he was from a totally working class background but pulled off the genteel stuff without looking in the least daunted by it.
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Re: SPECTRE and other James Bond stuff

Postby The Nimon » Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:16 pm

LizR wrote:
feline1 wrote:I think Fleming sold the film rights to all his books in the early 60s before he died? He did one or two to begin with (hence the odd Casino Royale, and all that Thunderball malarkey) but then he did a deal for all the rest with Brocoli & Saltzman. Something like that. But specified not to do The Spy Who Loved Me.

That would explain it. Can't say I blame him, either. TSWLM was a bit of a failed experiment, in my opinion (and I think his, as well as public opinion, I imagine).


Yes, what Feline says. It was also an important moment in the Bond series as this was the first one where CB went alone as producer. The only thing used from the book was the Henchman who was Called Teeth, who became Jaws
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Re: SPECTRE and other James Bond stuff

Postby bobmcpherson » Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:59 am

I rather like the novel A SPY WHO LOVED ME. It is a nice change of pace, an interesting experiment and a good "breather" between SPECTRE novels.........thought SPECTRE does figure in the plot. It is not as if Bond had never fought organized crime before. Slugsey and Horror Horowitz are right out of DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER.

I am dubious that Horror Horowitz had anything to do with Jaws. Rather JAWS had to do with Jaws as the ocean theme of the film was the producers attempt to cash in on that film as MOONRAKER was an attempt to cash in on STAR WARS.

I think the novel SPY was rather influenced by PSYCHO and, to lesser extent, CAPE FEAR........it was written during the period when Fleming was under pressure from various quarters to stop having Bond fight the Reds. Hence SPECTRE in THUNDERBALL. Hence gangsters and PSYCHO here. Fleming was flailing.

That said, I think it is a good read..............
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Re: SPECTRE and other James Bond stuff

Postby bobmcpherson » Thu Jul 30, 2015 1:03 am

Which actually brings up another point. When instead doing Bond, the producers attempt to rip off another genre. Besides the two films mentioned, THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN had Martial Arts. LIVE AND LET DIE....Blaxploitation. DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER...the camp craze.

And another problem with the Craig films can be summed up by stating they are just retreads of the Jason Bourne films.....................
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Re: SPECTRE and other James Bond stuff

Postby LizR » Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:40 am

bobmcpherson wrote:And another problem with the Craig films can be summed up by stating they are just retreads of the Jason Bourne films.....................

But not half as good. (IMHO, obviously).
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Re: SPECTRE and other James Bond stuff

Postby 'teleportNOW!' » Thu Jul 30, 2015 1:00 pm

bobmcpherson wrote:Which actually brings up another point. When instead doing Bond, the producers attempt to rip off another genre. Besides the two films mentioned, THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN had Martial Arts. LIVE AND LET DIE....Blaxploitation. DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER...the camp craze..


why is that bad? I found it fun!

Here's a bit from Casino Royale - Bond muses:
"...this country-right-or-wrong business is getting a little out-of-date. Today we are fighting Red herring. Okay. If I'd been alive fifty years ago, the brand of conservatism we have today would have been damn near called communisim and we should have been told to go and fight that. History is moving pretty quickly these days and the heroes and villians keep changing parts".

- if that's not Fleming's official seal of approval to have whatever villians seem appropriate for modern times in the films, I don't know what is ;)
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Re: SPECTRE and other James Bond stuff

Postby Allons-y » Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:35 pm

bobmcpherson wrote:And another problem with the Craig films can be summed up by stating they are just retreads of the Jason Bourne films.....................

Except that they aren't. They're both action films which feature spies (and they're hardly unique in this aspect) and that's about where the similarities end, I really do wonder if you've seen some of the stuff you criticize.
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Re: SPECTRE and other James Bond stuff

Postby The Nimon » Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:58 pm

Allons-y wrote:
bobmcpherson wrote:And another problem with the Craig films can be summed up by stating they are just retreads of the Jason Bourne films.....................

Except that they aren't. They're both action films which feature spies (and they're hardly unique in this aspect) and that's about where the similarities end, I really do wonder if you've seen some of the stuff you criticize.


Aren't the Bourne films just a poor rip off of the Bond films? Even his name, Jason Bourne, or JB is a rip off.
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Re: SPECTRE and other James Bond stuff

Postby Heccypoo » Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:06 pm

The Nimon wrote:
Allons-y wrote:
bobmcpherson wrote:And another problem with the Craig films can be summed up by stating they are just retreads of the Jason Bourne films.....................

Except that they aren't. They're both action films which feature spies (and they're hardly unique in this aspect) and that's about where the similarities end, I really do wonder if you've seen some of the stuff you criticize.


Aren't the Bourne films just a poor rip off of the Bond films? Even his name, Jason Bourne, or JB is a rip off.


They nicked all their ideas from The Man From U.N.C.L.E. ;)
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Re: SPECTRE and other James Bond stuff

Postby The Nimon » Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:58 pm

Heccypoo wrote:
The Nimon wrote:
Allons-y wrote:
bobmcpherson wrote:And another problem with the Craig films can be summed up by stating they are just retreads of the Jason Bourne films.....................

Except that they aren't. They're both action films which feature spies (and they're hardly unique in this aspect) and that's about where the similarities end, I really do wonder if you've seen some of the stuff you criticize.


Aren't the Bourne films just a poor rip off of the Bond films? Even his name, Jason Bourne, or JB is a rip off.


They nicked all their ideas from The Man From U.N.C.L.E. ;)


:lol:
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Re: SPECTRE and other James Bond stuff

Postby bobmcpherson » Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:05 am

feline1 wrote:
bobmcpherson wrote:Which actually brings up another point. When instead doing Bond, the producers attempt to rip off another genre. Besides the two films mentioned, THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN had Martial Arts. LIVE AND LET DIE....Blaxploitation. DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER...the camp craze..


why is that bad? I found it fun!

Here's a bit from Casino Royale - Bond muses:
"...this country-right-or-wrong business is getting a little out-of-date. Today we are fighting Red herring. Okay. If I'd been alive fifty years ago, the brand of conservatism we have today would have been damn near called communisim and we should have been told to go and fight that. History is moving pretty quickly these days and the heroes and villians keep changing parts".

- if that's not Fleming's official seal of approval to have whatever villians seem appropriate for modern times in the films, I don't know what is ;)


This is shocking to admit that I do not have the novel memorized but does Bond say the above AFTER he has had his genitalia beaten into a bloody blob with a rug beater???
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Re: SPECTRE and other James Bond stuff

Postby 'teleportNOW!' » Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:13 am

:lol: yes, when he's recovering in hospital. Mathis tells him not to be so silly. But it doesn't read like Fleming put it in as the opinion of a madman, just that of a realist.
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Re: SPECTRE and other James Bond stuff

Postby LizR » Fri Jul 31, 2015 3:01 am

Allons-y wrote:
bobmcpherson wrote:And another problem with the Craig films can be summed up by stating they are just retreads of the Jason Bourne films.....................

Except that they aren't. They're both action films which feature spies (and they're hardly unique in this aspect) and that's about where the similarities end, I really do wonder if you've seen some of the stuff you criticize.

Real life?
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