The Celestial Toymaker

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Re: THE CELESTIAL TOYMAKER

Postby Servorobot » Sun May 07, 2017 1:11 pm

thecypher wrote:
Servorobot wrote:This argument is only relevant if Celestial Toymaker has been found.

Would it be censored? Highly unlikely.

Probably about as likely as some posters not mentioning the letters "PC" in their posts.

So not going to happen then.


Not necessarily. The BBC Audio version had the "N-word" removed, so there is certainly a precedent for it.


Not if they haven't found it there isn't.
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Re: THE CELESTIAL TOYMAKER

Postby James-S » Sun May 07, 2017 1:17 pm

thecypher wrote:
Servorobot wrote:This argument is only relevant if Celestial Toymaker has been found.

Would it be censored? Highly unlikely.

Probably about as likely as some posters not mentioning the letters "PC" in their posts.

So not going to happen then.


Not necessarily. The BBC Audio version had the "N-word" removed, so there is certainly a precedent for it.


Ah, I'm glad this has finally been clarified because all this talk of "N-word"'s had me scratching my head as to where precisely in the story the offending material was. Must admit that I couldn't readily recall the rhyme in my audio copy of 'Toymaker..... and this is why!

I assume said material isn't in the surviving episode 4 (of which I haven't watched for years so would be unlikely to remember anyway) either?

....so, unbeknownst to me the Beeb has already righteously censored the audio CD release of the story... but apparently there's no chance a hypothetical release of a fully recovered 'Toymaker would be similarly cut?

Yeah right! :lol:
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Re: THE CELESTIAL TOYMAKER

Postby Servorobot » Sun May 07, 2017 1:38 pm

Well since it hasn't been found we'll never know either way will we? ;)
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Re: THE CELESTIAL TOYMAKER

Postby cyberlad » Mon May 08, 2017 12:48 am

thecypher wrote:
Servorobot wrote:This argument is only relevant if Celestial Toymaker has been found.

Would it be censored? Highly unlikely.

Probably about as likely as some posters not mentioning the letters "PC" in their posts.

So not going to happen then.


Not necessarily. The BBC Audio version had the "N-word" removed, so there is certainly a precedent for it.


Oh no, the horror the BBC censoring the n word. On another forum I frequent someone made a good point about people who want to see the dog called n****r in the dambusters and object to any attempt to censor it. Itis less about accuracy and more about people getting off on hearing the words heel n****r get down n****r.
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Re: THE CELESTIAL TOYMAKER

Postby LizR » Mon May 08, 2017 1:24 am

cyberlad wrote:On another forum I frequent someone made a good point about people who want to see the dog called n****r in the Dam Busters and object to any attempt to censor it. It is less about accuracy and more about people getting off on hearing the words heel n****r get down n****r.

I'm one of those people - not because I get off on the above (I might get off if it was the other way around, but I digress) but because I think it's silly to rewrite the past, rather than showing it how it was. If we object so violently to giving offence we'd better ban any class distinctions from "Downton Abbey" and have all the women characters be engineers and fighter pilots. (As for "Indian Summers", well, better make all the Indian characters like Gandhi and all the whites like caricatures of Cecil Rhodes...)
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Re: THE CELESTIAL TOYMAKER

Postby cyberlad » Mon May 08, 2017 1:51 am

LizR wrote:
cyberlad wrote:On another forum I frequent someone made a good point about people who want to see the dog called n****r in the Dam Busters and object to any attempt to censor it. It is less about accuracy and more about people getting off on hearing the words heel n****r get down n****r.

I'm one of those people - not because I get off on the above (I might get off if it was the other way around, but I digress) but because I think it's silly to rewrite the past, rather than showing it how it was. If we object so violently to giving offence we'd better ban any class distinctions from "Downton Abbey" and have all the women characters be engineers and fighter pilots. (As for "Indian Summers", well, better make all the Indian characters like Gandhi and all the whites like caricatures of Cecil Rhodes...)


There's a difference between portraying the past accurately and taking a few instances of the n word out of a film that was made in the 50s and set in the 40s. Given the history of the n word and the appalling acts that that word has inspired, then maybe taking it out isn't such a terrible thing. Oh and BTW when the film was released in the states the dog was called trigger.
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Re: THE CELESTIAL TOYMAKER

Postby LizR » Mon May 08, 2017 3:11 am

cyberlad wrote:
LizR wrote:
cyberlad wrote:On another forum I frequent someone made a good point about people who want to see the dog called n****r in the Dam Busters and object to any attempt to censor it. It is less about accuracy and more about people getting off on hearing the words heel n****r get down n****r.

I'm one of those people - not because I get off on the above (I might get off if it was the other way around, but I digress) but because I think it's silly to rewrite the past, rather than showing it how it was. If we object so violently to giving offence we'd better ban any class distinctions from "Downton Abbey" and have all the women characters be engineers and fighter pilots. (As for "Indian Summers", well, better make all the Indian characters like Gandhi and all the whites like caricatures of Cecil Rhodes...)


There's a difference between portraying the past accurately and taking a few instances of the n word out of a film that was made in the 50s and set in the 40s. Given the history of the n word and the appalling acts that that word has inspired, then maybe taking it out isn't such a terrible thing. Oh and BTW when the film was released in the states the dog was called trigger.

You may well be right about this particular instance, my point was that I disagree with any rewriting of history to make it seem like a version of the present with funny clothes and no iPhones. Furthermore, you made the specific suggestion that anyone who objects to removing the dog being called "Nigger" from the Dam Busters is doing because they "get off on hearing the words heel n****r get down n****r" - which is not so in my case, at least. Since you felt that it was OK to make that broad generalisation, I felt justified in pointing out that it wasn't true.

By the way, I'm not surprised they changed the dog's name in the states, but I would also not hold the US film industry up as a model of tolerance and avoiding giving offence.
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Re: THE CELESTIAL TOYMAKER

Postby thecypher » Mon May 08, 2017 11:23 am

cyberlad wrote:
LizR wrote:
cyberlad wrote:On another forum I frequent someone made a good point about people who want to see the dog called n****r in the Dam Busters and object to any attempt to censor it. It is less about accuracy and more about people getting off on hearing the words heel n****r get down n****r.

I'm one of those people - not because I get off on the above (I might get off if it was the other way around, but I digress) but because I think it's silly to rewrite the past, rather than showing it how it was. If we object so violently to giving offence we'd better ban any class distinctions from "Downton Abbey" and have all the women characters be engineers and fighter pilots. (As for "Indian Summers", well, better make all the Indian characters like Gandhi and all the whites like caricatures of Cecil Rhodes...)


There's a difference between portraying the past accurately and taking a few instances of the n word out of a film that was made in the 50s and set in the 40s. Given the history of the n word and the appalling acts that that word has inspired, then maybe taking it out isn't such a terrible thing. Oh and BTW when the film was released in the states the dog was called trigger.


Honestly, I've had a conversation about the "N-word" before on Facebook and I was shot down for my opinion. Look, I have no problem with hearing or using the word. I believe censorship of the English language is an abhorrent crime, regardless of it's historial context.

Further to that, I object to any re-writing of history in a film, TV show or published works from long ago so as not to offend the modern snowflake generation. Even if it is, as you suggest, something as simple as removing a certain word - this is still unacceptable. I always prefer original versions. The CGI in the Star Wars OT films is nice, but I still prefer the original theatrical releases.

If people with sensitivities don't like a certain word, then they shouldn't be watching the material. After all, the material isn't the problem - they are...
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Re: THE CELESTIAL TOYMAKER

Postby -JMW- » Mon May 08, 2017 12:43 pm

Documentaries and mature fiction
If the Celestial Toymaker clip featured in documentary - then the "N" word should remain intact.
The usage would be justified/condemned within the confines of the piece and this would enable viewers to make an informed judgement.

If Celestial Toymaker were an adult drama, then there'd be a case to leave it intact - but that it comes "out of the blue" and without racial context should require forewarning. Adults are able to make informed decisions if they have the information to hand, and they are, on the whole, able to process the historical televisual context.

But....

Think of the children!
In a children's television programme, where the context is not explicitly condemnatory and/or educational, and where the word itself is utterly irrelevant to any of the plotting or surrounding narrative...In that case, it is understandable that the publicly funded organisation disguise it.

I certainly wouldn't want that word banded about the playground...I wouldn't want to explain to fellow parent why my child was using it. I do believe my daughter capable of discretion when it comes to swearing and I have taught her that knowing a word/phrase doesn't always follow that repeating it is wise. She tends to follow that advice as far as I know. But I'm not sure she's ready for educating on the nuances of racism just yet - being that she's only six I'd rather she continue to experience multiculturalism and social bonding as the natural "order".

Archival Research:
That said, a copy of the entire unmolested version should always remain archived for historical research, and maybe altered portions made accessible online with an explanation of those alterations - that would most certainly satisfy cultural/historical sanctity IMO and a link could be provided on any media containing the altered version.

Today is tomorrow's history!
Actually, changing the word IS a part of historical importance too. The "N" word has been considered unacceptable in much of the media for many years - altering the word in certain media today, will be researched in years to come as part of our societal legacy. I am satisfied that tomorrow's researchers will be able to note this.
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Re: THE CELESTIAL TOYMAKER

Postby thecypher » Mon May 08, 2017 1:17 pm

-JMW- wrote:Documentaries and mature fiction
If the Celestial Toymaker clip featured in documentary - then the "N" word should remain intact.
The usage would be justified/condemned within the confines of the piece and this would enable viewers to make an informed judgement.

If Celestial Toymaker were an adult drama, then there'd be a case to leave it intact - but that it comes "out of the blue" and without racial context should require forewarning. Adults are able to make informed decisions if they have the information to hand, and they are, on the whole, able to process the historical televisual context.

But....

Think of the children!
In a children's television programme, where the context is not explicitly condemnatory and/or educational, and where the word itself is utterly irrelevant to any of the plotting or surrounding narrative...In that case, it is understandable that the publicly funded organisation disguise it.

I certainly wouldn't want that word banded about the playground...I wouldn't want to explain to fellow parent why my child was using it. I do believe my daughter capable of discretion when it comes to swearing and I have taught her that knowing a word/phrase doesn't always follow that repeating it is wise. She tends to follow that advice as far as I know. But I'm not sure she's ready for educating on the nuances of racism just yet - being that she's only six I'd rather she continue to experience multiculturalism and social bonding as the natural "order".

Archival Research:
That said, a copy of the entire unmolested version should always remain archived for historical research, and maybe altered portions made accessible online with an explanation of those alterations - that would most certainly satisfy cultural/historical sanctity IMO and a link could be provided on any media containing the altered version.

Today is tomorrow's history!
Actually, changing the word IS a part of historical importance too. The "N" word has been considered unacceptable in much of the media for many years - altering the word in certain media today, will be researched in years to come as part of our societal legacy. I am satisfied that tomorrow's researchers will be able to note this.


I absolutely adore how you write posts as if they're going to be published in a secondary school textbook :lol: :lol:
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Re: THE CELESTIAL TOYMAKER

Postby -JMW- » Mon May 08, 2017 2:00 pm

thecypher wrote:I absolutely adore how you write posts as if they're going to be published in a secondary school textbook :lol: :lol:

You lazy-arsed kids these days are just too distracted to pay attention if it's not broken down for you ;) 8-) :D
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Re: THE CELESTIAL TOYMAKER

Postby The Ginger Cat » Mon May 08, 2017 2:49 pm

Steve Roberts back on GB's Missing Episodes Megathread briefly touched on the N-word in CT, whilst nattering about altering or amending stuff in old programmes...

Steve Roberts wrote:
kergulen wrote:Thanks, Steve. Do you think bloopers should be fixed in old programmes in general? For me it shows that these people weren't perfect. In modern editions of Enid Blyton they've taken out the lines inferring that girls are only normal if they have long hair and the attacks on children for being "new rich" and not being a Lady just because their parents won on the pools.

As always, it's a matter of degree and trying to use common sense. Technical faults, like the ones mentioned in the Quatermass article, are generally something that you would look at and assess. I don't agree with taking out lines such as the ones you mention above. That said, if Celestial Toymaker ever returns, we would probably be forced by BBC Editorial Policy to change or mute the 'N-word' that's used as part of a nursery rhyme and I think that's a fair call.
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Re: THE CELESTIAL TOYMAKER

Postby cyberlad » Mon May 08, 2017 3:05 pm

thecypher wrote:
cyberlad wrote:
LizR wrote:
cyberlad wrote:On another forum I frequent someone made a good point about people who want to see the dog called n****r in the Dam Busters and object to any attempt to censor it. It is less about accuracy and more about people getting off on hearing the words heel n****r get down n****r.

I'm one of those people - not because I get off on the above (I might get off if it was the other way around, but I digress) but because I think it's silly to rewrite the past, rather than showing it how it was. If we object so violently to giving offence we'd better ban any class distinctions from "Downton Abbey" and have all the women characters be engineers and fighter pilots. (As for "Indian Summers", well, better make all the Indian characters like Gandhi and all the whites like caricatures of Cecil Rhodes...)


There's a difference between portraying the past accurately and taking a few instances of the n word out of a film that was made in the 50s and set in the 40s. Given the history of the n word and the appalling acts that that word has inspired, then maybe taking it out isn't such a terrible thing. Oh and BTW when the film was released in the states the dog was called trigger.


Honestly, I've had a conversation about the "N-word" before on Facebook and I was shot down for my opinion. Look, I have no problem with hearing or using the word. I believe censorship of the English language is an abhorrent crime, regardless of it's historial context.

Further to that, I object to any re-writing of history in a film, TV show or published works from long ago so as not to offend the modern snowflake generation. Even if it is, as you suggest, something as simple as removing a certain word - this is still unacceptable. I always prefer original versions. The CGI in the Star Wars OT films is nice, but I still prefer the original theatrical releases.

If people with sensitivities don't like a certain word, then they shouldn't be watching the material. After all, the material isn't the problem - they are...


I don't know maybe black people might get offended by it.
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Re: THE CELESTIAL TOYMAKER

Postby thecypher » Mon May 08, 2017 3:58 pm

cyberlad wrote:
thecypher wrote:
cyberlad wrote:
LizR wrote:I'm one of those people - not because I get off on the above (I might get off if it was the other way around, but I digress) but because I think it's silly to rewrite the past, rather than showing it how it was. If we object so violently to giving offence we'd better ban any class distinctions from "Downton Abbey" and have all the women characters be engineers and fighter pilots. (As for "Indian Summers", well, better make all the Indian characters like Gandhi and all the whites like caricatures of Cecil Rhodes...)


There's a difference between portraying the past accurately and taking a few instances of the n word out of a film that was made in the 50s and set in the 40s. Given the history of the n word and the appalling acts that that word has inspired, then maybe taking it out isn't such a terrible thing. Oh and BTW when the film was released in the states the dog was called trigger.


Honestly, I've had a conversation about the "N-word" before on Facebook and I was shot down for my opinion. Look, I have no problem with hearing or using the word. I believe censorship of the English language is an abhorrent crime, regardless of it's historial context.

Further to that, I object to any re-writing of history in a film, TV show or published works from long ago so as not to offend the modern snowflake generation. Even if it is, as you suggest, something as simple as removing a certain word - this is still unacceptable. I always prefer original versions. The CGI in the Star Wars OT films is nice, but I still prefer the original theatrical releases.

If people with sensitivities don't like a certain word, then they shouldn't be watching the material. After all, the material isn't the problem - they are...


I don't know maybe black people might get offended by it.


And?

Black people use the word all the time, but white people can't?

Double standards - but let's leave it there before we get off-topic.. :D
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Re: THE CELESTIAL TOYMAKER

Postby The Ginger Cat » Mon May 08, 2017 4:37 pm

thecypher wrote:
cyberlad wrote:I don't know maybe black people might get offended by it.

And?

Black people use the word all the time, but white people can't?

Double standards - but let's leave it there before we get off-topic.. :D


Yes, kindly do so.
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Re: THE CELESTIAL TOYMAKER

Postby cyberlad » Mon May 08, 2017 9:44 pm

The Ginger Cat wrote:Steve Roberts back on GB's Missing Episodes Megathread briefly touched on the N-word in CT, whilst nattering about altering or amending stuff in old programmes...

Steve Roberts wrote:
kergulen wrote:Thanks, Steve. Do you think bloopers should be fixed in old programmes in general? For me it shows that these people weren't perfect. In modern editions of Enid Blyton they've taken out the lines inferring that girls are only normal if they have long hair and the attacks on children for being "new rich" and not being a Lady just because their parents won on the pools.

As always, it's a matter of degree and trying to use common sense. Technical faults, like the ones mentioned in the Quatermass article, are generally something that you would look at and assess. I don't agree with taking out lines such as the ones you mention above. That said, if Celestial Toymaker ever returns, we would probably be forced by BBC Editorial Policy to change or mute the 'N-word' that's used as part of a nursery rhyme and I think that's a fair call.


Strikes me as perfectly reasonable.
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Re: THE CELESTIAL TOYMAKER

Postby Robo4900 » Sat May 20, 2017 8:14 pm

The thought occurs that they could just use DVD branching so it's censored by default, but add a button in the setup menu to uncensor it, for the purists.
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Re: THE CELESTIAL TOYMAKER

Postby James-S » Sun May 21, 2017 10:24 am

Robo4900 wrote:The thought occurs that they could just use DVD branching so it's censored by default, but add a button in the setup menu to uncensor it, for the purists.


....hmm, one can almost hear the sneer surely accompanying "purists"! ;)

Can't speak for anyone else but I'm merely anti-censorship as opposed to a 'purist' and am firmly of the opinion that 'history' (including what was permissible/acceptable on television, society in general et al in the past) should be presented to modern audiences 'warts an' all', not hidden away from them in perpetuity.

As with Disney effectively Stalinising 'Song of the South' ad infinitum though it's a shame that they and the BBC (should the remainder of Toymaker ever be found - and The Crusades for that matter!) couldn't turn faux controversy into something positive: i.e. release such material but accompanied with featurettes explaining why it might court controversy (justified or otherwise) and/or documenting ever-changing social tastes and stigmas.

Inform and educate, not censor (or in 'Song's' case: lock away indefinitely).
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Re: THE CELESTIAL TOYMAKER

Postby LizR » Sun May 21, 2017 11:05 am

James-S wrote:
Robo4900 wrote:The thought occurs that they could just use DVD branching so it's censored by default, but add a button in the setup menu to uncensor it, for the purists.


....hmm, one can almost hear the sneer surely accompanying "purists"! ;)

Can't speak for anyone else but I'm merely anti-censorship as opposed to a 'purist' and am firmly of the opinion that 'history' (including what was permissible/acceptable on television, society in general et al in the past) should be presented to modern audiences 'warts an' all', not hidden away from them in perpetuity.

I find myself in agreement with James on this one. Anything else is a form of Whiggism - the reinterpretation of history through ideologically rose-tinted spectacles, which in my humble opinion is a bad thing (Hitler and Stalin did it, for example, which is at least "ad hominem" support for my position).

So when are we going to see a re-run of "It ain't half hot mum!" ?
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Re: THE CELESTIAL TOYMAKER

Postby James-S » Sun May 21, 2017 1:32 pm

LizR wrote:
James-S wrote:
Robo4900 wrote:The thought occurs that they could just use DVD branching so it's censored by default, but add a button in the setup menu to uncensor it, for the purists.


....hmm, one can almost hear the sneer surely accompanying "purists"! ;)

Can't speak for anyone else but I'm merely anti-censorship as opposed to a 'purist' and am firmly of the opinion that 'history' (including what was permissible/acceptable on television, society in general et al in the past) should be presented to modern audiences 'warts an' all', not hidden away from them in perpetuity.

I find myself in agreement with James on this one. Anything else is a form of Whiggism - the reinterpretation of history through ideologically rose-tinted spectacles, which in my humble opinion is a bad thing (Hitler and Stalin did it, for example, which is at least "ad hominem" support for my position).


Let's also not forget - and as adroitly noted earlier in the thread, outrage over the use of the N-word is laughably selective anyway given it's propagation via a plethora of (c)Rap and hippity hoppity records (genres of which boast sizeable white audiences of course)!

Yes yes I know, black folk can say/use the word coz they own it, white folks can't and all that old guff. It's still double standards though no matter how one chooses to spin/excuse it.

So when are we going to see a re-run of "It ain't half hot mum!" ?


Well the stock rebuttal to that question will likely be: "but you can buy on DVD right now so what's the problem?' True enough of course but as I and others have concernedly speculated, with the seemingly irresistible proliferation of ever more draconian censorship (usually under the dubious auspices of causing offence of course) in the West, will that still be the case in about a decade or two?

Indeed, will the likes of 'It 'ain't Half Hot Mum' be figuratively joining 'Song of the South' in the bottomless vault of wrongthink/faux hurt feelings at some point in the future? You really wouldn't bet against it, and that's the problem/concern. :(
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