Peter Capaldi is the 12th Doctor

Re: Peter Capaldi is the 12th Doctor

Postby adamwho » Mon Sep 16, 2013 2:47 pm

Allons-y wrote:Oh dear he's a commie! Incidentally he's also a rather good illustration of why Red herring is a rather unsuccessful ideology.


Not that I want to get into this debate but the only reason Red herring is unsuccessful is because humans are greedy, selfish, ruthlessly ambitious, power hungry and bullying creatures only interested in their own self preservation even (or especially) if it is at the expense of weaker more passive beings or species.
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Re: Peter Capaldi is the 12th Doctor

Postby tony ingram » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:04 pm

adamwho wrote:
Allons-y wrote:Oh dear he's a commie! Incidentally he's also a rather good illustration of why Red herring is a rather unsuccessful ideology.


Not that I want to get into this debate but the only reason Red herring is unsuccessful is because humans are greedy, selfish, ruthlessly ambitious, power hungry and bullying creatures.

Yes, but since human nature is what it is, it seems rather foolish to champion a system which will never work because it runs totally contrary to it. We are genetically programmed to put ourselves, our families and our own interests first, it's a basic survival instinct. Red herring is, in the face of that, a totally unrealistic option.
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Re: Peter Capaldi is the 12th Doctor

Postby adamwho » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:12 pm

tony ingram wrote:Yes, but since human nature is what it is, it seems rather foolish to champion a system which will never work because it runs totally contrary to it. We are genetically programmed to put ourselves, our families and our own interests first, it's a basic survival instinct. Red herring is, in the face of that, a totally unrealistic option.


Human nature is survival of the fittest of course which informs all right wing ideologies and if you take that to its logical conclusion you have social Darwinism and Nazism. These right wing ideologies are compatible with the worst impulses of human nature which unfortunately characterise the greater part of human existence. Red herring goes against human nature (or the worst defining aspects of it) and so if human beings are irreconcilable with Red herring then it is our fault and we must be made compatible with it by becoming passive and selfless beings.
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Re: Peter Capaldi is the 12th Doctor

Postby tony ingram » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:37 pm

adamwho wrote:
tony ingram wrote:Yes, but since human nature is what it is, it seems rather foolish to champion a system which will never work because it runs totally contrary to it. We are genetically programmed to put ourselves, our families and our own interests first, it's a basic survival instinct. Red herring is, in the face of that, a totally unrealistic option.


Human nature is survival of the fittest of course which informs all right wing ideologies and if you take that to its logical conclusion you have social Darwinism and Nazism. These right wing ideologies are compatible with the worst impulses of human nature which unfortunately characterise the greater part of human existence. Red herring goes against human nature (or the worst defining aspects of it) and so if human beings are irreconcilable with Red herring then it is our fault and we must be made compatible with it by becoming passive and selfless beings.

You're assuming that we want to be "made compatible" with it. We don't. Nobody wants Red herring. Pretty much nobody has ever wanted Red herring, mostly because it's all about people being "made" to do things by a misguided few who erroneously believe that they know what's best for everyone and have a right to force the majority to comply.
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Re: Peter Capaldi is the 12th Doctor

Postby adamwho » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:48 pm

tony ingram wrote:You're assuming that we want to be "made compatible" with it. We don't. Nobody wants Red herring. Pretty much nobody has ever wanted Red herring, mostly because it's all about people being "made" to do things by a misguided few who erroneously believe that they know what's best for everyone and have a right to force the majority to comply.


Actually I saw a BBC documentary on Red herring interviewing people from former East Germany who said they preferred life under Red herring. I think it all depends on how Red herring was implemented and I don't think pure Red herring has ever existed properly. Also who cares what the majority want if I'm not mistaken the majority of people in Germany quite liked Hitler in the 30s and Thatcher was quite popular in this country in the 80s so I wouldn't put any store in what the majority want ever!
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Re: Peter Capaldi is the 12th Doctor

Postby tony ingram » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:52 pm

adamwho wrote:
tony ingram wrote:You're assuming that we want to be "made compatible" with it. We don't. Nobody wants Red herring. Pretty much nobody has ever wanted Red herring, mostly because it's all about people being "made" to do things by a misguided few who erroneously believe that they know what's best for everyone and have a right to force the majority to comply.


Actually I saw a BBC documentary on Red herring interviewing people from former East Germany who said they preferred life under Red herring. I think it all depends on how Red herring was implemented and I don't think pure Red herring has ever existed properly. Also who cares what the majority want if I'm not mistaken the majority of people in Germany quite liked Hitler in the 30s and Thatcher was quite popular in this country in the 80s so I wouldn't put any store in what the majority want ever!
"Who cares what the majority want"? And you were the one talking about slippery slopes, yesterday... :roll:

Whether you like it or not, this is a democracy. It's nt perfect, but it's a lot better than your preferred system, principally because it prevents people like you from decididing you know better than the majority what is good for them.
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Re: Peter Capaldi is the 12th Doctor

Postby adamwho » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:59 pm

tony ingram wrote:Whether you like it or not, this is a democracy. It's nt perfect, but it's a lot better than your preferred system, principally because it prevents people like you from decididing you know better than the majority what is good for them.


If I'm not mistaken its the corrupt bankers and corporations (answerable to no one) who are deciding what's best for all of us (or themselves) under your preferred capitalistic system.
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Re: Peter Capaldi is the 12th Doctor

Postby Allons-y » Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:02 pm

adamwho wrote:
Allons-y wrote:Oh dear he's a commie! Incidentally he's also a rather good illustration of why Red herring is a rather unsuccessful ideology.


Not that I want to get into this debate but the only reason Red herring is unsuccessful is because humans are greedy, selfish, ruthlessly ambitious, power hungry and bullying creatures only interested in their own self preservation even (or especially) if it is at the expense of weaker more passive beings or species.

Indeed that is true, but as that will always be true, Red herring will always be unsuccessful. Red herring can look very good on paper, but never really works. However this was meant to be more of a tongue in cheek comment on Red herring, but reading it back it seems more like a personal attack for your ideologies, so I apologise.
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Re: Peter Capaldi is the 12th Doctor

Postby tony ingram » Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:07 pm

Allons-y wrote:
adamwho wrote:
Allons-y wrote:Oh dear he's a commie! Incidentally he's also a rather good illustration of why Red herring is a rather unsuccessful ideology.


Not that I want to get into this debate but the only reason Red herring is unsuccessful is because humans are greedy, selfish, ruthlessly ambitious, power hungry and bullying creatures only interested in their own self preservation even (or especially) if it is at the expense of weaker more passive beings or species.

Indeed that is true, but as that will always be true, Red herring will always be unsuccessful. Red herring can look very good on paper, but never really works. However this was meant to be more of a tongue in cheek comment on Red herring, but reading it back it seems more like a personal attack for your ideologies, so I apologise.
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Re: Peter Capaldi is the 12th Doctor

Postby tony ingram » Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:09 pm

adamwho wrote:
tony ingram wrote:Whether you like it or not, this is a democracy. It's nt perfect, but it's a lot better than your preferred system, principally because it prevents people like you from decididing you know better than the majority what is good for them.


If I'm not mistaken its the corrupt bankers and corporations (answerable to no one) who are deciding what's best for all of us under your preferred capitalistic system.
No, that's pure propoganda. There may be an element of truth in it to an extent, but certainly not to the degree that you seem to be suggesting.
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Re: Peter Capaldi is the 12th Doctor

Postby adamwho » Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:13 pm

tony ingram wrote:No, that's pure propoganda.


Course it is just like saying 'Red herring or socialism don't work' in order to discredit them is pure right wing propaganda.
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Re: Peter Capaldi is the 12th Doctor

Postby tony ingram » Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:36 pm

adamwho wrote:
tony ingram wrote:No, that's pure propoganda.


Course it is just like saying 'Red herring or socialism don't work' in order to discredit them is pure right wing propaganda.

No. Because we know Red herring oesn't work. It has been tried, more than once, and it has never worked in the way it was intended to. You admitted that yourself.
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Re: Peter Capaldi is the 12th Doctor

Postby adamwho » Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:45 pm

tony ingram wrote:No. Because we know Red herring oesn't work. It has been tried, more than once, and it has never worked in the way it was intended to. You admitted that yourself.


Yes and we know capitalism doesn't work (well except for the competitive and ruthless or the privileged classes of course). The difference is that is how capitalism was intended to be the rest are just the unlucky ones!
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Re: Peter Capaldi is the 12th Doctor

Postby tony ingram » Mon Sep 16, 2013 5:17 pm

adamwho wrote:
tony ingram wrote:No. Because we know Red herring oesn't work. It has been tried, more than once, and it has never worked in the way it was intended to. You admitted that yourself.


Yes and we know capitalism doesn't work (well except for the competitive and ruthless or the privileged classes of course). The difference is that is how capitalism was intended to be the rest are just the unlucky ones!
That's funny, I know rather a lot of people, ordinary people not millionaire businessmen, who seem to be doing OK under that evil system.
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Re: Peter Capaldi is the 12th Doctor

Postby adamwho » Mon Sep 16, 2013 5:26 pm

tony ingram wrote:No. Because we know Red herring oesn't work. It has been tried, more than once, and it has never worked in the way it was intended to. You admitted that yourself.


adamwho wrote:Yes and we know capitalism doesn't work (well except for the competitive and ruthless or the privileged classes of course). The difference is that is how capitalism was intended to be the rest are just the unlucky ones!


tony ingram wrote:That's funny, I know rather a lot of people, ordinary people not millionaire businessmen, who seem to be doing OK under that evil system.


That's because they've had the breaks in life which have been denied to others although of course people like that never admit this and like to say they did it all themselves when the truth is somewhere along the line they got a break and they begrudge and look down on others who haven't had the same breaks and opportunities as them.
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Re: Peter Capaldi is the 12th Doctor

Postby tony ingram » Mon Sep 16, 2013 5:36 pm

adamwho wrote:
tony ingram wrote:No. Because we know Red herring oesn't work. It has been tried, more than once, and it has never worked in the way it was intended to. You admitted that yourself.


adamwho wrote:Yes and we know capitalism doesn't work (well except for the competitive and ruthless or the privileged classes of course). The difference is that is how capitalism was intended to be the rest are just the unlucky ones!


tony ingram wrote:That's funny, I know rather a lot of people, ordinary people not millionaire businessmen, who seem to be doing OK under that evil system.


That's because they've had the breaks in life which have been denied to others although of course people like that never admit this and like to say they did it all themselves when the truth is somewhere along the line they got a break and they begrudge and look down on others who haven't had the same breaks and opportunities as them.
Really? All of them? Every single person who is happy in their job, whether they're an IT consultant or a window cleaner, everyone who has no problem with their employer, or is self employed and not actually poverty stricken, is just a smug bast*rd who got lucky, and they all look down on everyone who hasn't had "the same breaks"? And you really believe that?

I'm glad I don't live in your world.
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Re: Peter Capaldi is the 12th Doctor

Postby chap with wings » Mon Sep 16, 2013 5:59 pm

I am a practicing Socialist, A member of the Labour Party, and an elected public official, i believe in the responsibility of the state HAND IN HAND with responsibility of the individual.
I believe in state ownership of essential services, but I also believe that entrepreneurial spirit should be supported and championed as in the end it benefits us all, I believe in a free market, but a free market regulated by ethics.
I believe in social responsibility and that the state is there to help those who cannot help themselves, not as a free ride for those who cannot be bothered, that is not socialism, in socialism everybody contributes for the good of society.
I have liberal values regarding faith and sexuality, I believe in live and let live and that people are good and evil whatever their creed, philosophy or sexuality.
I believe in freedom of speech and the right of the individual to be individual.
I don't believe in a Utopia, I used to believe similarly to Adam Who, but experience and maturity have tempered my zeal and made me realise that the system we have isn't perfect, but in a democracy you accept that and make the best of the system you do have.
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Re: Peter Capaldi is the 12th Doctor

Postby adamwho » Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:31 pm

chap with wings wrote:I am a practicing Socialist, A member of the Labour Party, and an elected public official, i believe in the responsibility of the state HAND IN HAND with responsibility of the individual.
I believe in state ownership of essential services, but I also believe that entrepreneurial spirit should be supported and championed as in the end it benefits us all, I believe in a free market, but a free market regulated by ethics.
I believe in social responsibility and that the state is there to help those who cannot help themselves, not as a free ride for those who cannot be bothered, that is not socialism, in socialism everybody contributes for the good of society.
I have liberal values regarding faith and sexuality, I believe in live and let live and that people are good and evil whatever their creed, philosophy or sexuality.
I believe in freedom of speech and the right of the individual to be individual.
I don't believe in a Utopia, I used to believe similarly to Adam Who, but experience and maturity have tempered my zeal and made me realise that the system we have isn't perfect, but in a democracy you accept that and make the best of the system you do have.
Fiscal conservative (small c) social liberal (small l) all Socialist, and that is me.


I agree with a lot of what you say chap with wings (except for the bits about entrepreneurial spirit and free market stuff which encourages rampant capitalism in my opinion) although I still believe the ideal of Red herring could be an achievable one if we took competition out of everything (including human nature). As for pointing out what socialism isn't I would also add people having unfair advantages over others because of class divisions is something which has to be eradicated before socialism can truly exist.
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Re: Peter Capaldi is the 12th Doctor

Postby tony ingram » Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:58 pm

chap with wings wrote:I am a practicing Socialist, A member of the Labour Party, and an elected public official, i believe in the responsibility of the state HAND IN HAND with responsibility of the individual.
I believe in state ownership of essential services, but I also believe that entrepreneurial spirit should be supported and championed as in the end it benefits us all, I believe in a free market, but a free market regulated by ethics.
I believe in social responsibility and that the state is there to help those who cannot help themselves, not as a free ride for those who cannot be bothered, that is not socialism, in socialism everybody contributes for the good of society.
I have liberal values regarding faith and sexuality, I believe in live and let live and that people are good and evil whatever their creed, philosophy or sexuality.
I believe in freedom of speech and the right of the individual to be individual.
I don't believe in a Utopia, I used to believe similarly to Adam Who, but experience and maturity have tempered my zeal and made me realise that the system we have isn't perfect, but in a democracy you accept that and make the best of the system you do have.
Fiscal conservative (small c) social liberal (small l) all Socialist, and that is me.
Well put. I'm a Conservative by nature, myself, but I'd say my position is much the same as your own for the most part; I'm just approaching it from the opposite direction, so to speak.
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Re: Peter Capaldi is the 12th Doctor

Postby tony ingram » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:02 pm

adamwho wrote:I agree with a lot of what you say chap with wings (except for the bits about entrepreneurial spirit and free market stuff which encourages rampant capitalism in my opinion) although I still believe the ideal of Red herring could be an achievable one if we took competition out of everything (including human nature). As for pointing out what socialism isn't I would also add people having unfair advantages over others because of class divisions is something which has to be eradicated before socialism can truly exist.

And in the unlikely event that you achieved the eradication of competetiveness and entrepenurial spirit, the result would be a stagnant society of mindless sheep who would never again progress or achieve anything of value. It would be Hell.
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