STEVEN MOFFAT RESIGNS - REPLACED BY CHRIS CHIBNALL

CHRIS CHIBNELL - NEW SHOWRUNNER

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Re: STEVEN MOFFAT RESIGNS - REPLACED BY CHRIS CHIBNALL

Postby cyberlad » Sun Feb 28, 2016 12:34 pm

Oh FFS has anyone read the f*****g article I've linked to?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18903391

Of course, there were fewer, and they drew antipathy as well as fascination from the Tudor inhabitants, who had never seen black people before. But we know they lived, worked and intermarried, so it is fair to say that Britain's first black community starts here.
There had been black people in Britain in Roman times, and they are found as musicians in the early Tudor period in England and Scotland.
But the real change came in Elizabeth I's reign, when, through the records, we can pick up ordinary, working, black people, especially in London.
Shakespeare himself, a man fascinated by "the other", wrote several black parts - indeed, two of his greatest characters are black - and the fact that he put them into mainstream entertainment reflects the fact that they were a significant element in the population of London.
You don't have to hate the new series here but it helps.
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Re: STEVEN MOFFAT RESIGNS - REPLACED BY CHRIS CHIBNALL

Postby Joseph » Sun Feb 28, 2016 4:51 pm

Allons-y wrote:I must say I hate when they have blacks in Elizabethan England and the like, it's historically inaccurate and rather jarring. Yes you may've had one or two, but as in Othello (I know that isn't set in England), they'd rather stand out due to the lack of black people in the country generally, they wouldn't just be hanging around.


I don't hate it as long as you make out that the show isn't trying to be historically accurate. Like take for instance Xena and Hercules two tv shows I watched when I was young that I loved. They were chalk full of historical innacuracies that were so bad they were surreal.

However the show never pretended to be accurate and that was fine.

The problem with New Who is that it can't decide what it wants to be. If it has a black priest then its Xena and that's fine However New Who wants to d that AND then do one that is historically accurate to tug at the heart strings.

It wants to have its cake and eat it too.
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Re: STEVEN MOFFAT RESIGNS - REPLACED BY CHRIS CHIBNALL

Postby bobmcpherson » Sun Feb 28, 2016 8:50 pm

Allons-y wrote:I must say I hate when they have blacks in Elizabethan England and the like, it's historically inaccurate and rather jarring. Yes you may've had one or two, but as in Othello (I know that isn't set in England), they'd rather stand out due to the lack of black people in the country generally, they wouldn't just be hanging around.


And if the Doctor ever lands in ancient Timbuktu, it would just as jarring to have a Viking in the back ground as well.

I recall this VERY silly historical film called WALKER set in 1850s Central America. A true story...at the end of the movie just as the title character is about to be killed as he was in real life....a Huey Helicopter came down and helped him escape.

What the hell???
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Re: STEVEN MOFFAT RESIGNS - REPLACED BY CHRIS CHIBNALL

Postby bobmcpherson » Sun Feb 28, 2016 8:54 pm

Joseph wrote:
Allons-y wrote:I must say I hate when they have blacks in Elizabethan England and the like, it's historically inaccurate and rather jarring. Yes you may've had one or two, but as in Othello (I know that isn't set in England), they'd rather stand out due to the lack of black people in the country generally, they wouldn't just be hanging around.


I don't hate it as long as you make out that the show isn't trying to be historically accurate. Like take for instance Xena and Hercules two tv shows I watched when I was young that I loved. They were chalk full of historical innacuracies that were so bad they were surreal.

However the show never pretended to be accurate and that was fine.

The problem with New Who is that it can't decide what it wants to be. If it has a black priest then its Xena and that's fine However New Who wants to d that AND then do one that is historically accurate to tug at the heart strings.

It wants to have its cake and eat it too.


The Black priest in the wild west ep was stupid beyond words. And then they make it worse by having the Doctor spew some anti-Christian bigotry which BECAUSE the character he is speaking to is Black is actually just metaphysically appalling. I am amazed the ep was never banned in the US.
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Re: STEVEN MOFFAT RESIGNS - REPLACED BY CHRIS CHIBNALL

Postby markhuk » Mon Feb 29, 2016 3:12 pm

LizR wrote:
markhuk wrote:
LizR wrote:Not to mention the Torchwood episode "Captain Jack Harkness" set at a time when Alan Turing, having almost single-handedly won WW2, went on to be persecuted for being gay. :roll:


Thats a bit of a stretch as well as extremely insulting to the thousands of men and women who gave their lives

A bit of a stretch perhaps, but not much of one, and in no way insulting to say that the Bletchley Park people obtained vital information from breaking the Enigma machine that saved many, many 1000s of lives. Knowing what the Nazis were planning was absolutely invaluable to Churchill's strategy, and the UK's subsequent treatment of Turing was totally shabby.

What my comment IS perhaps insulting to is the hundreds of gay men who were also persecuted, but not granted a posthumous "pardon" because they weren't responsible for cracking the Nazi's secret code.


You dont think that the hard work done by all the others and the lives given to protect the free world was as important as Alan Turnings work - he single handedly won the war, odd I dont remember him running at an enemy bunker to save the lives of his comrades, leaping from a plane into enemy occupied territory - oh yes thats because he didnt, whilst I agree that Turings work was hugely important to say that he "single handedly" won the war is extremely condescending and belittles the work of the others on his team and all the men, and women fighting and dying across the world.
I agree that the treatment of Turing, both during and after the war, was disgraceful but that in no way excuses denigrating the work and sacrifice given by the regular rank and file soldiers.
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Re: STEVEN MOFFAT RESIGNS - REPLACED BY CHRIS CHIBNALL

Postby markhuk » Mon Feb 29, 2016 3:12 pm

LizR wrote:
markhuk wrote:
LizR wrote:Not to mention the Torchwood episode "Captain Jack Harkness" set at a time when Alan Turing, having almost single-handedly won WW2, went on to be persecuted for being gay. :roll:


Thats a bit of a stretch as well as extremely insulting to the thousands of men and women who gave their lives

A bit of a stretch perhaps, but not much of one, and in no way insulting to say that the Bletchley Park people obtained vital information from breaking the Enigma machine that saved many, many 1000s of lives. Knowing what the Nazis were planning was absolutely invaluable to Churchill's strategy, and the UK's subsequent treatment of Turing was totally shabby.

What my comment IS perhaps insulting to is the hundreds of gay men who were also persecuted, but not granted a posthumous "pardon" because they weren't responsible for cracking the Nazi's secret code.


You dont think that the hard work done by all the others and the lives given to protect the free world was as important as Alan Turnings work - he single handedly won the war, odd I dont remember him running at an enemy bunker to save the lives of his comrades, leaping from a plane into enemy occupied territory - oh yes thats because he didnt, whilst I agree that Turings work was hugely important to say that he "single handedly" won the war is extremely condescending and belittles the work of the others on his team and all the men, and women fighting and dying across the world.
I agree that the treatment of Turing, both during and after the war, was disgraceful but that in no way excuses denigrating the work and sacrifice given by the regular rank and file soldiers.
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Re: STEVEN MOFFAT RESIGNS - REPLACED BY CHRIS CHIBNALL

Postby bobmcpherson » Mon Feb 29, 2016 5:10 pm

Re: Turing. "He singlehandedly won the War" Which war was that?? Eastern Front? Pacific theater? North Africa??

And I think the Poles should get a tiny bit of credit for actually getting an Enigma device out of Europe.

Yes yes Turing was Gay and we all know Gays are the center of all creation but MUST we start rewriting history???

Man I hate watching pikers try and do history just because they saw a movie.

And Hitler was killed in a Paris movie theater in 1944.

:roll:
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Re: STEVEN MOFFAT RESIGNS - REPLACED BY CHRIS CHIBNALL

Postby bobmcpherson » Mon Feb 29, 2016 5:28 pm

Joseph wrote:
Allons-y wrote:I must say I hate when they have blacks in Elizabethan England and the like, it's historically inaccurate and rather jarring. Yes you may've had one or two, but as in Othello (I know that isn't set in England), they'd rather stand out due to the lack of black people in the country generally, they wouldn't just be hanging around.


I don't hate it as long as you make out that the show isn't trying to be historically accurate. Like take for instance Xena and Hercules two tv shows I watched when I was young that I loved. They were chalk full of historical innacuracies that were so bad they were surreal.

However the show never pretended to be accurate and that was fine.

The problem with New Who is that it can't decide what it wants to be. If it has a black priest then its Xena and that's fine However New Who wants to d that AND then do one that is historically accurate to tug at the heart strings.

It wants to have its cake and eat it too.


To dramatize history successfully be it a straight history or placing the Doctor in a historical setting, you HAVE to establish period and you cannot do that by shoving in anachronisms. I hated ZENA and HERCULES because they were quite frankly historically deranged. One minute she is fighting Julius Caesar the next she is showing David how to defeat Goliath. THE WILD WILD WEST was a sci fic show set during a specific historical period...really Jules Verne....the twist was that the sci fic elements WERE before their time.

Sticking Blacks in Elizabethan England or having Medieval women with super ninja powers and talking like Gloria Steinhem or having Britons attending a Joust all acting like modern soccer fans just kills any attempt at verisimilitude.

THE AZTECS with no budget and in Black and White broke its back placing the characters in a believable setting and playing off that history. NUWHO does crap history. History for narcissistic ignorant SJO fanboys who need the universe to revolve around them.

And then there is that dinosaur wandering Victorian England with the populace acting like this is an everyday occurrence .

Of course.

The main difference between CLASSIC WHO and NUWHO is the former always tried at least to be intelligent. NOWHO has embraced the stupidity of the SJO movement and drips with contempt for its audience.

So yeah why not have an ep where a giant dinosaur attacks Elizabethan England so Queen Elizabeth summons Ye Royal Air Force piloted by Ye Black Squadron to place an airstrike upon yon beast. It all inspires Shakespeare---who is the Gay lover of Christopher Marlowe---secretly a Zygon by the way....to write TITUS ANDRONICUS. After the beast is slain, everyone makes the fist sign and shouts, "YES!!!"
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Re: STEVEN MOFFAT RESIGNS - REPLACED BY CHRIS CHIBNALL

Postby iank » Mon Feb 29, 2016 10:55 pm

New Who did historicals fairly well at first. Somewhere around series 4 (Fires of Pompeii springs to mind) they basically just gave up even trying and that story's "joke" (they're exactly like 21st century Britons, just in funny clothes, honest!) seemed to become New Who's standard default attitude to historicals (Vincent in series 5 being perhaps the honourable exception), thus robbing them of everything that made them interesting in the first place.
(Doctor Who) has been hijacked and redefined as a lucrative modern franchise. They've literally taken a square peg and painfully made it fit a round hole by taking enormous liberties with much of its fundamental essence. There's no turning back now.

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Re: STEVEN MOFFAT RESIGNS - REPLACED BY CHRIS CHIBNALL

Postby Allons-y » Mon Feb 29, 2016 11:46 pm

bobmcpherson wrote:
Joseph wrote:
Allons-y wrote:I must say I hate when they have blacks in Elizabethan England and the like, it's historically inaccurate and rather jarring. Yes you may've had one or two, but as in Othello (I know that isn't set in England), they'd rather stand out due to the lack of black people in the country generally, they wouldn't just be hanging around.


I don't hate it as long as you make out that the show isn't trying to be historically accurate. Like take for instance Xena and Hercules two tv shows I watched when I was young that I loved. They were chalk full of historical innacuracies that were so bad they were surreal.

However the show never pretended to be accurate and that was fine.

The problem with New Who is that it can't decide what it wants to be. If it has a black priest then its Xena and that's fine However New Who wants to d that AND then do one that is historically accurate to tug at the heart strings.

It wants to have its cake and eat it too.


The Black priest in the wild west ep was stupid beyond words. And then they make it worse by having the Doctor spew some anti-Christian bigotry which BECAUSE the character he is speaking to is Black is actually just metaphysically appalling. I am amazed the ep was never banned in the US.

Yes it's fine if it's a fantasy setting, but Doctor Who isn't, he travels through history. The black priest was fine, there were plenty of recently freed blacks in the wild west
AMERICA IS AN ANVIL.

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Re: STEVEN MOFFAT RESIGNS - REPLACED BY CHRIS CHIBNALL

Postby LizR » Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:48 am

markhuk wrote:
LizR wrote:
markhuk wrote:
LizR wrote:Not to mention the Torchwood episode "Captain Jack Harkness" set at a time when Alan Turing, having almost single-handedly won WW2, went on to be persecuted for being gay. :roll:


Thats a bit of a stretch as well as extremely insulting to the thousands of men and women who gave their lives

A bit of a stretch perhaps, but not much of one, and in no way insulting to say that the Bletchley Park people obtained vital information from breaking the Enigma machine that saved many, many 1000s of lives. Knowing what the Nazis were planning was absolutely invaluable to Churchill's strategy, and the UK's subsequent treatment of Turing was totally shabby.

What my comment IS perhaps insulting to is the hundreds of gay men who were also persecuted, but not granted a posthumous "pardon" because they weren't responsible for cracking the Nazi's secret code.


You dont think that the hard work done by all the others and the lives given to protect the free world was as important as Alan Turnings work - he single handedly won the war, odd I dont remember him running at an enemy bunker to save the lives of his comrades, leaping from a plane into enemy occupied territory - oh yes thats because he didnt, whilst I agree that Turings work was hugely important to say that he "single handedly" won the war is extremely condescending and belittles the work of the others on his team and all the men, and women fighting and dying across the world.
I agree that the treatment of Turing, both during and after the war, was disgraceful but that in no way excuses denigrating the work and sacrifice given by the regular rank and file soldiers.

No one is denigrating them. You are missing the point(s).

1. Wars are won mainly by intelligence - apart from the enigma code there was the atomic bomb, V1 and V2 rocket science, bouncing bombs, RADAR and probably a load of other stuff.

2. You may have overlooked my use of the word "almost" in front of "single-handedly" -- the main point of my hyperbole was to emphasise how ridiculously TW portrayed gay people at a time when DESPITE having had a huge influence on the course of the war, Turing was still treated shamefully.
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Re: STEVEN MOFFAT RESIGNS - REPLACED BY CHRIS CHIBNALL

Postby The Nimon » Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:10 pm

bobmcpherson wrote:
To dramatize history successfully be it a straight history or placing the Doctor in a historical setting, you HAVE to establish period and you cannot do that by shoving in anachronisms. I hated ZENA and HERCULES because they were quite frankly historically deranged. One minute she is fighting Julius Caesar the next she is showing David how to defeat Goliath. THE WILD WILD WEST was a sci fic show set during a specific historical period...really Jules Verne....the twist was that the sci fic elements WERE before their time.

Sticking Blacks in Elizabethan England or having Medieval women with super ninja powers and talking like Gloria Steinhem or having Britons attending a Joust all acting like modern soccer fans just kills any attempt at verisimilitude.

THE AZTECS with no budget and in Black and White broke its back placing the characters in a believable setting and playing off that history. NUWHO does crap history. History for narcissistic ignorant SJO fanboys who need the universe to revolve around them.

And then there is that dinosaur wandering Victorian England with the populace acting like this is an everyday occurrence .

Of course.

The main difference between CLASSIC WHO and NUWHO is the former always tried at least to be intelligent. NOWHO has embraced the stupidity of the SJO movement and drips with contempt for its audience.

So yeah why not have an ep where a giant dinosaur attacks Elizabethan England so Queen Elizabeth summons Ye Royal Air Force piloted by Ye Black Squadron to place an airstrike upon yon beast. It all inspires Shakespeare---who is the Gay lover of Christopher Marlowe---secretly a Zygon by the way....to write TITUS ANDRONICUS. After the beast is slain, everyone makes the fist sign and shouts, "YES!!!"



I think that you've missed a huge point here Bob. You mentioned the Aztecs, well this is from when the show was being made under its originaly planned format, a semi-educational series with one story Sci-fi followed by one set purly in history, to educate the young viewers watching. This was in place until the Highlanders, after that anything set in history tended to have a monster in it and wasn't really aiming to do anything other than being entertaining and not trying to be historicly right, the one exception to this was 1982s Black Orchid. It was found that the stories with Monsters in did better than the historical, so the historical went and the series became full fiction and lost the educational part. After the Highlanders, Classic Who only made 15 or so stories set in the past, thats not counting City of Death that states that all life on earth was created by an alien spaceship blowing up, its also not including The Time Monster which was set in Atlantis or Timelash. All but Black Orchid featured alien monsters so can't really be classed as historicaly right.

Now yeah, you could say that there was no Black / yellow / halfcast or what ever people around back then in real life in these stories, but there was also no invading alien monsters either, alien monsters also did not feature in stories such as The Aztecs, Highlanders or Reign of Terror also didn't have feature in the 60s. I see no diffrence between stories set in history from 1966 onwards in classic Who to the ones set in history in the new series. That is unless someone really does think that the Doctor killing some aliens in pudding lane did really start the great fire of London.
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Re: STEVEN MOFFAT RESIGNS - REPLACED BY CHRIS CHIBNALL

Postby cyberlad » Wed Mar 02, 2016 10:04 pm

It's also worth noting that The Reign of Terror, The Romans, The Myth Makers, The gunfighters and The Highlanders all played fast and loose with history.
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Re: STEVEN MOFFAT RESIGNS - REPLACED BY CHRIS CHIBNALL

Postby LizR » Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:11 am

cyberlad wrote:It's also worth noting that The Reign of Terror, The Romans, The Myth Makers, The gunfighters and The Highlanders all played fast and loose with history.

For a start the Romans - and the Daleks - could speak English, long before anyone realised this was a bit unlikely and had to hand-wave an explanation.

My favourite bit of David Whitaker's novelisation of "The Daleks" is

"It talked!"

(Not "It talked English!")
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Re: STEVEN MOFFAT RESIGNS - REPLACED BY CHRIS CHIBNALL

Postby History Tourist » Fri Mar 04, 2016 4:44 am

Wow, Bob actually started to make sense for a moment, but he redeemed himself pretty quickly with his paranoia about the vast liberal conspiracy (TM) to marginalize white people.

As for the speaking English, that was a necessary compromise, but they should have done the hand-waving right off the bat. Cavemen wouldn't have spoken English either, after all.

Finally, there's a good reason to get back to straight historicals, or at least back to adding them into the mix of the kinds of stories "Doctor Who" tells. You want your characters to face a challenge, but it gets annoyingly predictable when every week that challenge is a godlike being or invincible cyborg army that will conquer/destroy the universe. In a straight historical the Doctor is constrained by having to solve the problem of the week without changing history.

They've made the Doctor far too powerful, so put him in situations where he CAN'T use his full power.
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Re: STEVEN MOFFAT RESIGNS - REPLACED BY CHRIS CHIBNALL

Postby bobmcpherson » Fri Mar 04, 2016 4:17 pm

To repeat the main point. IF you are going to place a story within a historical milieu, you MUST ground it in a recognizable verisimilitude whether it is a straight historical---with Time Travelers encountering the history in question or a Sci Fic story taking place IN the historical setting.

Yes aliens did not start the Great London fire but if you place that story with a 1600s London where everyone has cell phones and there are Swedish Ninja transvestites then you have destroyed the base upon which the story must function. To wit..aliens operating in a place and time where they should not be threatening not only life on Earth but established history as we know it.

This corruption and contempt for history is a very recent cultural phenomenon and has created a body of work that will be dismissed and forgotten as soon as the powers enforcing it has lost that power to do so.
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Re: STEVEN MOFFAT RESIGNS - REPLACED BY CHRIS CHIBNALL

Postby The Nimon » Fri Mar 04, 2016 9:20 pm

bobmcpherson wrote:To repeat the main point. IF you are going to place a story within a historical milieu, you MUST ground it in a recognizable verisimilitude whether it is a straight historical---with Time Travelers encountering the history in question or a Sci Fic story taking place IN the historical setting.

Yes aliens did not start the Great London fire but if you place that story with a 1600s London where everyone has cell phones and there are Swedish Ninja transvestites then you have destroyed the base upon which the story must function. To wit..aliens operating in a place and time where they should not be threatening not only life on Earth but established history as we know it.

This corruption and contempt for history is a very recent cultural phenomenon and has created a body of work that will be dismissed and forgotten as soon as the powers enforcing it has lost that power to do so.


But its fiction, its not supposed to be real, only as real as the writer wants.

No its not recent, Its nothing new, the Star Trek TNG story Times Arrow springs to mind, with Ginan as a woman of society and not a slave in the 1800s (or whenever it was set) in the south of America and that was made over 20 years ago. I could also point out how Rose was portrayed in Cameron's Titanic back in 1997, more like a modern woman 1990s than a woman from the 1910s (the film has quite a few things changed or wrong), those are just two examples off the top of my head, theres many more. I could also point out the WW2 movies made in the 50s and 60s, such a The Great Escape, based on real events and featuring American leads being Americans, who weren't there at the time in real life. Or how about those Robin Hood films / tv shows where Robin is American, I'm looking at you Kevin Cosner, and where the hell did Morgan Freeman pop up from? Men in Tights even had Tuck as being Jewish. All of this is far from recent Bob. Hollywood has had a long career in changing and rewriting history to suit its films, and it will go on happening.

I'm yet to see a new who episode where they have items that weren't around in that time, such as cell phones. The Classic series does though, Time Warrior springs to mind with Sarah peeling the potatoes when they weren't in england in the time it was set.
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Re: STEVEN MOFFAT RESIGNS - REPLACED BY CHRIS CHIBNALL

Postby iank » Fri Mar 04, 2016 10:33 pm

Which is entirely mythical, by the way. :D
Imagine, Nimon clutching at a strawman in a lame attempt to defend New Who's shitness! :floorroll:
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Re: STEVEN MOFFAT RESIGNS - REPLACED BY CHRIS CHIBNALL

Postby chap with wings » Fri Mar 04, 2016 10:42 pm

I'm saying nothing.......
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Re: STEVEN MOFFAT RESIGNS - REPLACED BY CHRIS CHIBNALL

Postby LizR » Sat Mar 05, 2016 5:47 am

chap with wings wrote:I'm saying nothing.......

Glad to hear it. :evil:

Hang on, if you're saying nothing, how CAN I hear it? :shock:
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