New Doctor announced on Sunday

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lordnellie
 
 
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As an aside, i was wondering what canon and history has to say on the subject...

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=5771

I only really know the show but have there been arguments for or against the whole Time Lord gender issue in the wider Who universe???
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You don't treat a damaged, suffering limb by lopping it off. You care for it, do everything you can to save it. Basically that's what's happened here. DW has been suffering since Moffat took over, the poison has spread and instead of attempting to save the limb, the BBC has simply chopped it off. No more DW.

This is a product of Moffat's twisted mind. But he's achieved what he set out to do. Kill off DW because he couldn't stand the thought of anyone else producing it. Thanks to him it can never be the show I grew up loving anymore. I'll say this for Moffat, he knew he was killing DW, but he didn't want to get the blood on his hands (he doesn't like death and he hasn't got the guts for that) he's just left the hapless Chibnell to take care of the final messy details, secure in the knowledge that it was his hand that guided the knife.

But as I say, the Doctor died due to the Cyberman shooting him down, full stop - end of what was - until Moffat got his grubby, talentless hands on it - a great show. Another Time Lord has found his TARDIS and stolen his identity, and is now travelling around using his name. And that's it. The Doctor was male, end of. And yes, had the Doctor been female to start with and been replaced with a male actor the same would still apply. The show would still be over. Because Dr Who, although set in a fantastical world, was set in a world governed by absolutes.

This is what happens when professionals are no longer in charge. You get people like Moffat and clearly Chibnell who say: 'Oh no, there are no absolutes in DW it's a fairytale, anything can happen'.

No it can't. It's a sci-fi show, the absolutes are the factors that create drama. No absolutes, no drama. No drama, no point in watching it. But if that's what you want, create your own show then you can churn out all the s*** you want and nobody can complain.

The theory is the ratings are dropping lets do something drastic. The ratings were dropping because it's been produced by an incompetent for the last god knows how many years. I had rather hoped that Chibnell would be the man to restore quality back to the show, especially after his (now embarrassing) outburst on TV all those years ago. But all I can say is: I feel so let down and betrayed and I wish he'd stuck to Broadchurch.

No, the Doctor was shot down at the end of his 12th regeneration and he went off to die alone. The image of his 1st incarnation drifted before his eyes as he contemplated a long long life, and the lights went out. The TARDIS remained and was later taken by a Time Lady who also adopted the Doctor's name and everything moved on. The Doctor died trying to help people, and DW died with him. And you know, as much as I despise Moffat... that's not a bad way to go.

Whatever it is you want to call it now, may go on to be great, but it will never again be Dr Who. It is Taggart, and like Taggart one can only hope it continues. It certainly can't sink any lower.

To quote somebody off here: 'Doctor Who was a great show, thank god Big Finish (and to some extent Russell T Davies) brought it back.
#William Hartnell will always be the 1st Doctor. The Doctor is male.
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:lol: Fair play mate!

I take your points over the character rather than the performance. Although Delgado aside, the Master's always had a camp side and that's including Ainsley's wonderful portrayal!

My god, I'm never gonna get the image of Eric the Duck out my head now though!!! :lol:
Oh yes the Master always had a camp side no doubt about that. Though I always say him as more being grandiloquent, pompous and with a taste for the theatrics rather than being a craaaaaaaazzzzyyyy villain like Simm and Gomez.

Obviously in spite of my rehtoric I'm not pointing a finger and going I ACCUSE! at anyone who likes Missy. Michelle Gomez is a very charismatic and engaging actress and she looks stunningly beautiful. So I can see why people might like her on screen.

However as I have been over not only did the character not mesh, but also I think that people were too flippant shall we say in not recognising what Missy meant. I said that a lot of them were scared of being called sexist, and I definitely think that was the case on a lot of big sites like GB.

However I think a lot of others just didn't see it as that big a deal as maybe to them the Master wasn't that big a deal? However it was at it was the first step to what we have now with Jodie Whitaker.

Truth be told the Master is nowhere near my favourite villain either. I don't dislike him, but I vastly prefer the Daleks, Davros and the Cybermen. However the thing about Missy was that first of all obviously casting a woman as a male time lord sets the bad precedent for it to happen to the Doctor.

Furthermore the changes to Missy's character also show how the feminists had taken a character away from Doctor Who and its fans and it made it their character instead.

The Master is completely rewritten for them. He's now a woman, even though he was a sexist, wife beater before. He now is in love with the Doctor, even though his hatred of him kept him alive for years.

Its a very worrying sign for the future of a franchise if a major character like the Master can be completely changed into practically the opposite of what they once were just to satisfy the loudest and most aggressive group of fans, the feminists. When that happens its not going to stop until they take control of the entire franchise which they ultimately did for the next 3 years and now like anything the feminists have taken over, the New Atheist Movement, Marvel Comics, its sunk.
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Aha! The truth at last...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 48331.html

The Beeb just wanna pay less!!! :lol:
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Being a PC, leftie, snowflake type I was always going to approve of a female Doctor, and an actor of the calibre of Jodie Whittaker will be a boon to the series.

However - I do empathise with those who disagree, I have been there myself in 2009 when Smith was cast - I felt he was woefully miscast and would do untold damage to the brand and largely I think he did - but - I hung on, i bore with the series because it was Doctor Who and was rewarded by my favourite Doctor being cast in Peter Capaldi.
So what I am trying to say in my leftie, PC, snowflake way is that you may not agree with the casting but Doctor Who is all about change and there will be another Doctor along in 3 or 4 years. If Who can survive Matt Smith it can survive anything :D
"It can become a kind of franchise where it's not a real character at all, but just an amalgam of elements that people think are Doctor Who: a scarf, a bow tie... I wanted to be the actual Doctor Who." - Peter Capaldi

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chap with wings wrote:Being a PC, leftie FAB type I was always going to approve of a female Doctor, and an actor of the Cali team of Jodie Whittaker will be a boon to the series.

However - I do empathise with those who disagree, I have been there myself in 2009 when Smith was cast - I felt he was woefully miscast and would do untold damage to the brand and largely I think he did - but - I hung on, i bore with the series because it was Doctor Who and was rewarded by my favourite Doctor being cast in Peter Capaldi.
So what I am trying to say in my leftie, PC, FAB way is that you may not agree with the casting but Doctor Who is all about change and there will be another Doctor along in 3 or 4 years. If Who can survive Matt Smith it can survive anything :D
Wrong on so many counts...

Matt Smith has been the only actor, so far, that has actually been believable as The Doctor...

In Capaldi's defence, he had worse material to work from than Matt Smith's, though Matt's performance was also hindered by Mofftwat's crap overseeing..

What's the betting that they will give the 13th Doctor a female companion as well, so it's ok for the companion to outshine a female Doctor... 8-)
Now that we all know about the rude bits, aren't they rude? And as we get older, they get ruder and ruder. :oops:
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lordnellie wrote:Aha! The truth at last...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 48331.html

The Beeb just wanna pay less!!! :lol:
Imagine if Capaldi got paid as much as that Chris Evans, he probably would have vetoed all the sh*te Moffat presented to him and would probably still be here today.
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Heccypoo wrote:
chap with wings wrote:Being a PC, leftie FAB type I was always going to approve of a female Doctor, and an actor of the Cali team of Jodie Whittaker will be a boon to the series.

However - I do empathise with those who disagree, I have been there myself in 2009 when Smith was cast - I felt he was woefully miscast and would do untold damage to the brand and largely I think he did - but - I hung on, i bore with the series because it was Doctor Who and was rewarded by my favourite Doctor being cast in Peter Capaldi.
So what I am trying to say in my leftie, PC, FAB way is that you may not agree with the casting but Doctor Who is all about change and there will be another Doctor along in 3 or 4 years. If Who can survive Matt Smith it can survive anything :D
Wrong on so many counts...

Matt Smith has been the only actor, so far, that has actually been believable as The Doctor...

In Capaldi's defence, he had worse material to work from than Matt Smith's, though Matt's performance was also hindered by Moffhack's crap overseeing..

What's the betting that they will give the 13th Doctor a female companion as well, so it's ok for the companion to outshine a female Doctor... 8-)
Matt Smith was pants, but he did have some awful sh*te from Moffat as well. Maybe he need to be paid as much as Evans. 2.2 million quid to tank Top Gear. Good one BBC!
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Well I'm trying to force myself to be excited. Jodie herself looks like a fine actor, and I'm sure she'll give it her all. What bothers me most is that already those long-standing loyal fans who have stuck by the many excesses the series has offered over the years are now being shamed if they don't accept this radical change, as though these kind of challenging shock tactics are part of the DNA of the series. See here:

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/tv ... story.html

It just isn't true. The series used to be a humble little sci-fi show that would play with the formula at times but nearly always deliver an expected result. Some of Nu Who has blown me away (often due to special effects), and some of the stark departures worked (Dr in a leather jacket). However, like Sherlock Holmes and Dracula, revivals work best when they solidly draw on the foundations. I'm just not convinced yet that this is in keeping with those foundational elements. Doctor Who has never been very subtle when pushing a message, and I feel that Nu Who has been awful in pushing minority agendas in a non-subtle way. I love a good message as much as the next person, but good writing is about subtly. Remembrance got away with it (just), but Tennant's finale was ruined by the gay bar scene, but then again all the farewell scenes were phoney apart from Rose.

Dr Who was never as deep or as PC as retconning would like us to think. Should it be? Maybe - maybe not. Why not make a spin-off series if you want to capture an existing fan base rather than hijack them? Why mess with a winning formula just to be different? I'm all for women role models, but how can that cause be served by reclaiming a traditional male role? It suggests that everything should be interchangeable for the sake of either entertainment or art. I guess I am traditional. I see no point in a female Richard III (which there was), or a female Sherlock Holmes. Female characters should be born for their own ends. That's why I feel uncomfortable. I will watch, but I feel a preference to watch a show with a particular style for so long has now been robbed. I've seen nothing to suggest the new female Dr will be quirky and eccentric like we've come to expect. Like others here we may regret our reservation in time, but we'll see.
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Smithy was great.
Space Commander Shuz, reporting for duty!
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Honestly I don't really care, I just wish the show would go back to stories I actually want to watch.

I'm going to tune in, curious to see if it's any good.

But if I do chuck it in it will be because the stories are sh*te, not because there's a woman in the main role.

And that's Chibber's challenge, he's done the shock value and got everyone talking about the show, curious to see what it's going to be like. He's just going to have to keep them once they've tuned in.

It's not going to be pretty if Jodie gets a debut story as bad as Peter Capaldi's.

Quality should win out, but nothing sinks quicker than sh*t.
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Accepted, there are those less invested in the series (probably a whole lot of people) who are not that bothered either way and will wait and see and judge things on their own merits. But as those people are not posting inflammatory comments, let's just leave 'the boringly reasonable' out if it shall we? For anyone else bothered enough to express an opinion, there appear to be two diametrically opposed camps :

Camp 1) Long-term fans who grew up with 'classic' WHO, disenfranchised by a decision they view as fundamentally undermining a life-long favourite programme. The reasons for it are strong, personal, and based on wanting the programme they love to retain what they see as a crucially fundamental aspect of its origins & tradition. Camp 1 also believes that the show should not concern itself with gender or relationship issues but should concentrate on time-traveling, science-fiction adventure, believing that there are other more appropriate vehicles for that agenda.

Camp 2) More 'flexible fans (modern or long-term), who don't have an issue with the casting announcement and in many ways see it as forward-thinking and appropriate for today's societal attitudes, who embrace the change, and who see it as a positive shot-in-the-arm for the series. Camp 2 believes that gender and relationship issues are an important part of any drama and positively encourage its inclusion.

Both of these are equally valid opinions. Whilst there is no 'absolute' right or wrong, there is a very definite 'right or wrong' for the individual, dependent on the camp with which they associate. That does not make either Camp 'bad'. Neither side is going to win the argument or convince the other to change their opinion. But both Camps cannot be pleased at the same time. Based on these two immovable and opposing positions, and given that the key casting decision has been taken and shall not be reversed...

Camp 1 berates show-runners for betraying the show's history, aggrieved that something they have loved for so long has been (metaphorically) 'taken' from them. Camp 1 decides to abandon ship.

Camp 2 berates Camp 1 for being sexist or misogynist in not embracing the change and mocks and ridicules their Luddite ways on social media.

Personally, I find myself in Camp 1. I do not wish any ill to the incoming team. I don't have any issues with strong female roles or with talented actresses (forgive my having been brought up on that non-denigrating gender-specific term). I do not care one iota about anyone's sexual persuasion - it neither bothers me nor interests me. I think diversity is a wonderful thing, I just don't necessarily want it to feature in my escapist story-telling of choice.

I have been watching the show loyally all my life. I have not enjoyed much at all it in recent years - for many reasons (some cited above) but mostly for terribly self-indulgent, over-convoluted, conveniently-resolved, poorly plotted, continuity-hole-riddled story-telling. But enough is enough.

So, fare-well good ship WHO and all who remain sailing in her. May your voyage without me be clear of icebergs.
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Some fairly hysterical responses being illicited from this announcement so far, as was to be expected.

For what it's worth (and with a few days of reflection), I was ok in principle with the idea of a female Doctor, but I'm not exactly thrilled by Jodie Whittaker's casting. I've seen a few things with her in and she's made zero impression on me as an actor. It all feels rather incestuous the way she's come straight in from Chibnall's only other success. Certainly she did an adequate job in Broadchurch, but that character was a billion light years away from the demands playing the Doctor will bring. Phoebe Waller-Bridge or Olivia Coleman would perhaps have felt like a more natural transition for the character. But Hey, at least it wasn't Kris Marshall!

I'm what most (certainly here) would label a "PC brigade leftie". I'm a member of the Green Party FFS, but I can still acknowledge that this casting is primarily motivated by a) the need to create headline news for a flagging product and b) the continual heavy-handed attempts by the BBC to try and prove it's diversity and inclusivity, whether done appropriately or not (see this season's anachronous insertions of BAME/LGBT into historical settings).

But at the end of the day, I'm philosophical about it. I will certainly give Whittaker's episodes a try and almost certainly watch the entire run even if every episode turns out to be sh*t - it's not as if the past 10 series have been consistently triumphant. As far as I'm concerned, proper Doctor Who finished in 1989 and everything since 2005 has been more of a tribute act, albeit with the occasional terrific episode. A fresh start was needed and that's what we've got.
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The worst thing about this decision is that they can never again cast a man.

The only way we will ever get a male Doctor again is if Whittaker and Chibnall make such a f*ck up, it gets "rested" for abit and comes back with a chap. Probably a black guy, just because.
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greystone_06 wrote:
No, the Doctor was shot down at the end of his 12th regeneration and he went off to die alone. The image of his 1st incarnation drifted before his eyes as he contemplated a long long life, and the lights went out. The TARDIS remained and was later taken by a Time Lady who also adopted the Doctor's name and everything moved on. The Doctor died trying to help people, and DW died with him. And you know, as much as I despise Moffat... that's not a bad way to go.
Ooh, i quite like that! Can i add a bit?

The 1st Doctor, shocked by his final incarnation's absolute death, decides "There must ALWAYS be a doctor...".
Then he zooms off in Capaldi's (working!) Tardis to recruit Susan to assume the mantle!
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Hartnell's Wig wrote:The worst thing about this decision is that they can never again cast a man.

The only way we will ever get a male Doctor again is if Whittaker and Chibnall make such a f*ck up, it gets "rested" for abit and comes back with a chap. Probably a black guy, just because.
I think if Whittaker's first season is poorly-received by the mainstream press, we'll be back on familiar white male ground within a year or two. Wouldn't surprise me at all if she's only pencilled in to do a single series anyway.

If it continues long term with a female lead, perhaps the been might appease the disenfranchised fans with a spinoff series of past Doctor adventures, I'm sure Tennant would be up for it, or even better McGann could even finally get a TV series. Yeah, wishful thinking I know...
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If the production values and story telling remain the same as they've been for the last few years, then the next casting of the Doctor will be wee Jimmy Krankie herself. :lol:
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The Delgado and Pratt Masters were hardly camp in any way, Pratt started the insane Master characterization which carried on with Beevers, Ainley and Roberts. Perhaps his mind was warped by whatever force it was that damaged his body. Ainley only became camp with Mark of The Rani I thought, maybe due to him trying to outdo Kate O'Mara's Rani! After that The Master was the space psycho in everyone's minds and that was how Eric Roberts played the character. Missy was a bad idea, and was a ploy used by Moffat the hack to see how much resentment there would be if he tried to change The Doctor into a woman and let us not forget that this 'man' hated the original series with a venom as shown in that Australian interview from the nineties and he also stated that the concept of regeneration was rubbish and didn't make sense!
I can see Chibnell or whatever he is called, bringing back things from the shows past in order to draw back the viewers who will leave the show, he probably thinks that characters like Scaroth and The Valeyard may just get them back to the sofas on Saturday evenings before the series ends! Well not this old peanut! Moffat's tenure has been a disaster and each and every week he's left me embittered towards him and his team! Can anyone claim that he has produced a classic at all? The only episode I enjoyed was The Doctor's Wife and that was marred by the remarks he made about a Time Lord called The Corsair who changed his sex as often as he changed his underpants!
Moffat's legacy will be that as he leaves the show he will be taking many of the long term fans, like myself, with him! :evil:
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Don't know if anyone's already mentioned this but Phil Morris has tweeted his support for the decision to make the Doctor a woman. He's clearly pro-Chibbers and anti- Moffat. Even more reason to release those missing episodes!
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greystone_06 wrote:You don't treat a damaged, suffering limb by lopping it off. You care for it, do everything you can to save it. Basically that's what's happened here. DW has been suffering since Moffat took over, the poison has spread and instead of attempting to save the limb, the BBC has simply chopped it off. No more DW.

This is a product of Moffat's twisted mind. But he's achieved what he set out to do. Kill off DW because he couldn't stand the thought of anyone else producing it. Thanks to him it can never be the show I grew up loving anymore. I'll say this for Moffat, he knew he was killing DW, but he didn't want to get the blood on his hands (he doesn't like death and he hasn't got the guts for that) he's just left the hapless Chibnell to take care of the final messy details, secure in the knowledge that it was his hand that guided the knife.

But as I say, the Doctor died due to the Cyberman shooting him down, full stop - end of what was - until Moffat got his grubby, talentless hands on it - a great show. Another Time Lord has found his TARDIS and stolen his identity, and is now travelling around using his name. And that's it. The Doctor was male, end of. And yes, had the Doctor been female to start with and been replaced with a male actor the same would still apply. The show would still be over. Because Dr Who, although set in a fantastical world, was set in a world governed by absolutes.

This is what happens when professionals are no longer in charge. You get people like Moffat and clearly Chibnell who say: 'Oh no, there are no absolutes in DW it's a fairytale, anything can happen'.

No it can't. It's a sci-fi show, the absolutes are the factors that create drama. No absolutes, no drama. No drama, no point in watching it. But if that's what you want, create your own show then you can churn out all the s*** you want and nobody can complain.


The theory is the ratings are dropping lets do something drastic. The ratings were dropping because it's been produced by an incompetent for the last god knows how many years. I had rather hoped that Chibnell would be the man to restore quality back to the show, especially after his (now embarrassing) outburst on TV all those years ago. But all I can say is: I feel so let down and betrayed and I wish he'd stuck to Broadchurch.

No, the Doctor was shot down at the end of his 12th regeneration and he went off to die alone. The image of his 1st incarnation drifted before his eyes as he contemplated a long long life, and the lights went out. The TARDIS remained and was later taken by a Time Lady who also adopted the Doctor's name and everything moved on. The Doctor died trying to help people, and DW died with him. And you know, as much as I despise Moffat... that's not a bad way to go.

Whatever it is you want to call it now, may go on to be great, but it will never again be Dr Who. It is Taggart, and like Taggart one can only hope it continues. It certainly can't sink any lower.

To quote somebody off here: 'Doctor Who was a great show, thank god Big Finish (and to some extent Russell T Davies) brought it back.
Y'know, this in bold made me think back to what Linkara was saying about how the dissolution of tension being prominent with Power Rangers Super Megaforce in his HOPR Vid on the whole season. The last 7 years worth of no absolutes and lack tension are ever on par with that particular PR season to where they really do have a giant thing in common, well two: what in bold and a royal slap in the face to long time fans due to the lunacy of two lazy incompetent individuals. With Power Rangers, it was former long time producer Jonathan Tzachor; in the case of Doctor Who, it's Moffat and Chibnall..
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