THE MEDDLING MONK/WAR CHIEF: Are They Actually The Master?

Discussion of the classic series of Doctor Who hosted by Planet Mondas Forum.

Are the Meddling Monk and/or The War Chief Actually The Master?!?

YES: But only the MONK is probably The Master
1
4%
YES: But only the WAR CHIEF is probably The Master
3
12%
YES: They are BOTH probably The Master!
2
8%
NO: NEITHER of them are.
19
73%
WHO KNOWS!: But it's fun to speculate! : )
1
4%
 
Total votes: 26
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Cygnus Prime
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Is it possible that the Meddling Monk and/or The War Chief are actually earlier incarnations of the Master?


:?








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LizR
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It's possible, but ti clearly wasn't the original intent.
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iank
 
 
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No.
(Doctor Who) has been hijacked and redefined as a lucrative modern franchise. They've literally taken a square peg and painfully made it fit a round hole by taking enormous liberties with much of its fundamental essence. There's no turning back now.

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Bowtiesarecool
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I just think that they are just renegade Time Lords like the Master.

Interestingly enough, there was a character in The Mind Robber called The Master. Although he had nothing to do with The Master that we know.
The Doctor died with Capaldi. The Chibnall era is non-canon.

There are no Doctors before William Hartnell.

Without respect, we reject.

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Bowtiesarecool wrote:I just think that they are just renegade Time Lords like the Master.

Interestingly enough, there was a character in The Mind Robber called The Master. Although he had nothing to do with The Master that we know.
Absolutely. The more the merrier. If they're all one person we're robbed of two other great renegade Time Lords. And at least they're still Time Lords and Gallifreyans!
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Cygnus Prime
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Nothing to do with the Master this time.....

But someone has a theory:

Is Krasko from Rosa and The Meddling Monk from The time Meddler the same person?




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Cygnus Prime
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2:05 onward in this clip.....

Returning to his old history-meddling ways?: :?





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Flimsy evidence, I know. :Cyberman:
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Servorobot
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Cygnus Prime wrote:Nothing to do with the Master this time.....

But someone has a theory:

Is Krasko from Rosa and The Meddling Monk from The time Meddler the same person?




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Proof that drugs f*ck with your brain I think.
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Cygnus Prime
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The Monk's post DALEKS' MASTER PLAN adventures:

https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/The_Monk ... s_Champion
For some time, there was speculation that the Monk was an earlier incarnation of the Master and the War Chief (in part due to a statement in Doctor Who and the Doomsday Weapon that the Doctor and the Master were the only two Renegade Time Lords ever to leave Gallifrey). FASA's The Doctor Who Role Playing Game stated that the Monk as portrayed by Butterworth was the same Time Lord as the Master with the War Chief being one his servants. However, no actual narrative media has ever drawn this connection.

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Cygnus Prime
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That other incarnation of the Meddling Monk.....

In a verbal showdown with the Eighth Doctor! :o





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metalunamutant
 
 
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Someone needs to deepfake a regeneration scene with Monk's face to War Chief's face.
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The War Chief is 100% The Master. I have difficulty understanding why someone would say that isn't the case.

The "Monk" is a much trickier issue. At the time, Doctor Who was a human scientist who invented Tardis. So "coming from the same place" meant the same human place, not a fellow Gallifreyan.

I say the time meddler should stay in the realm where Hartnell was a human with one heart. Trying to "bring him back", whether as the Master OR a Time Lord in his own right is completely missing the point.

But Brayshaw is indubitably the Master.
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Cygnus Prime wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:50 pm
Nothing to do with the Master this time.....

But someone has a theory:

Is Krasko from Rosa and The Meddling Monk from The time Meddler the same person?




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But The Monk wasn’t a racist?

Some people have way too much time on their hands.
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Servorobot
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As for the original question that would be a no.

Seems there’s too much of people peering into the shadows and seeing things that aren’t there. Wishing their fantasies were reality.
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I go by what the people at the time said and wrote.

In the novelisation of Colony in Space(Doctor Who and the Doomsday Weapon) Malcom Hulke explicitly states that only two TARDISes have been stolen up to that point, one by the Doctor and one by the Master. And then, when a young Time Lord asks an elder Time Lord about the history of the Doctor and the Master, the elder Time Lord recounts the events of The War Games.

In the novelisation of Terror of the Autons Terrance Dicks gives the history of The War Games for the backstory to the Doctor/Master story.

The Master knows about the events of The War Games in Frontier in Space.

In the novelisation of The Three Doctors, Terrance Dicks explicitly states that, prior to encountering Omega, the Doctor ahd only ever come up against one other Time Lord antagonist..the Master.

In the novelisation of The War Games, it is explicitly stated that the Doctor and the War Chief are the only two renegade Time Lords at that time.

And in an interview after his time on the show, right after speaking about The War Games, Malcolm Hulke mentions that during his time on the show, there were only two renegade Time Lords, the Doctor and the Master.

The mo of the "two Time Lords" is identical. "Their" motivation, "their" "self-justification", "their" ultimate goals. Plus "their" unique relationship(s?) to the Doctor. it would be ****ing stupid to have two identical Time Lords. One who just disappears without a trace, and then another one who just appears shortly afterwards with no apparent backstory.

Plus, oh yes, Malcolm Hulke and Terrance Dicks, the men who actually wrote the stuff said it's the same character.

I honestly don't care what it says in Divided Loyalties, or TARDIS Data Core, or The Discontinuity Guide. I treat those the same way I treat The Timeless Child(ren).

Plus, it's made explicitly clear that the character isn't called "the War Chief" the way the Doctor is called "the Doctor". "War Chief" is a job rank within the War Lord's organisational structure.

As for "the Meddling Monk".

a) That isn't his name either

b) He is a human being. Everything in his TARDIS is from Earth history. All his schemes(Stonehenge, Da Vinci, the London Bank etc.) are human things, involving Earth history. As said, at the time Doctor Who was a human from the future who invented Tardis. And Susan named Tardis. And they had adventures. and then, after Susan left, the Doctor encountered another human being with a Tardis.

Which is also why all those stories such as books like Lungbarrow, Divided Loyalties etc., Big Finish stories like The Beginning, The Destination Wars, The Black Hole etc. are just so wrong on so many levels.

The "Monk" belongs to the Era of The Gunfighters, The Romans, John and Gillian etc. Note how many 60's Who stories would look totally out of place in the Pertwee Era(or later). Note how many characters from the 60's, when they "return"(in whatever medium) fall flat, because they don't belong in any other era.

Whoever Rufus Hound is supposed to be playing in Big Finish audio adventures, it can't possibly be the same human character that Peter Butterworth appeared as in The Time Meddler and The Daleks' Masterplan.

So, yes, the "War Chief" 100% is the Master. It wouldn't make sense otherwise.

And, no, the "Meddling Monk" is not the Master. because he's a human time meddler, not a Time Lord from the planet Gallifrey.

And any story set before The War Games that contains, or even speaks of, "Time Lords", or even "the Doctor's people", is not being faithful to the era it is supposedly set in.
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Speaking of people who are also other people...

Wasn't the War Cheif also Magnus Greel?
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Cygnus Prime
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shuzbot wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:46 am
Speaking of people who are also other people...

Wasn't the War Cheif also Magnus Greel?

Just found this.....

https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/Magnus_Greel



Weng-Chiang was originally going to be the Master, following on from The Deadly Assassin, but producer Philip Hinchcliffe had this changed as he didn't want to have the Master revealed as the secret villain again. Alan Barnes has pointed out several clues in the story that still point to the original plan: the "time cabinet" and Greel referring to Leela as "the first morsel to feed my regeneration". (DWM 475)






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shuzbot wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:46 am
Speaking of people who are also other people...

Wasn't the War Cheif also Magnus Greel?
I can see that one. The War Chief winds up in future Earth and he easily slips back into the dictator role.

This time his hasn’t got the War Lord and his resources so he can’t develop SIDRATS so he develops a much cruder version with the Zigma beams.

He’s used up all his regenerations so he has to flee when the heat comes on.

And the rest is history. :D
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This is fully canonical as far as I am concerned:

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LizR
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Somehow that feels right. It could even explain the Master's desire to get back at the Doctor regardless of risk to himself.
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