WEEKLY (RE)WATCH OF THE MISSING 97: "The Space Pirates" (Episode 5)

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"DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND HARRY, IT'S VITAL!": Which Episode would you MOST like back?

EPISODE 1: The Tardis materialised on a space beacon - and the Doctor and his friends find themselves in the middle of an attack by Space Pirates.
1
50%
EPISODE 3: The Travellers discover the space pirates' hideout - only to find themselves at the mercy of the pirates.
1
50%
EPISODE 4: With Milo's help the trio escape - but the pirates have set a terrible trap for them.
0
No votes
EPISODE 5: The trio escape, thanks to a brilliant trick of the Doctor's. Separated from his friends, the Doctor faces almost certain death.
0
No votes
EPISODE 6: (Yet to be rewatched)
0
No votes
OKAY, SO I'M GREEDY!: Sorry poll, but this is one of my favourite lost stories of all - and I want more than one measly episode back!!
0
No votes
GIVE ME A DIFFERENT STORY INSTEAD: To be honest I could contentedly live without further returns for this story if it means swapping it for something else's return. There are better stories out there that need their episodes back!
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 2
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Black Orchid
 
 
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Wiped! Updated edition page 84, 85 and 87:

Film library records show that the 35mm print of Power 6 was junked prior to 1976 - probably about 1969.
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Yartek
 
 
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Black Orchid wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:47 pm
Wiped! Updated edition page 84, 85 and 87:

Film library records show that the 35mm print of Power 6 was junked prior to 1976 - probably about 1969.
bast*rds.
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Yartek wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:32 pm
Black Orchid wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:47 pm
Wiped! Updated edition page 84, 85 and 87:

Film library records show that the 35mm print of Power 6 was junked prior to 1976 - probably about 1969.
bast*rds.
Just obeying orders!
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Black Orchid wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:47 pm
Wiped! Updated edition page 84, 85 and 87:

Film library records show that the 35mm print of Power 6 was junked prior to 1976 - probably about 1969.
Hmm. Interesting since they kept the other ones.

So they recorded it as destroyed but not when. A bit slack in the record keeping department weren’t they?

Also they were supposed to junk Wheel 6 but obviously didn’t..

Lots of probablys written there. As you can see the record keeping is not very consistent and I’m not sure you can draw a reliable conclusion.
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Servorobot wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:22 pm
Black Orchid wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:47 pm
Wiped! Updated edition page 84, 85 and 87:

Film library records show that the 35mm print of Power 6 was junked prior to 1976 - probably about 1969.
Hmm. Interesting since they kept the other ones.

So they recorded it as destroyed but not when. A bit slack in the record keeping department weren’t they?

Also they were supposed to junk Wheel 6 but obviously didn’t..

Lots of probablys written there. As you can see the record keeping is not very consistent and I’m not sure you can draw a reliable conclusion.
I am quoting from Richard Molesworth's book. I have no original thoughts on this.
:)

Hmm. Interesting since they kept the other ones:

The Daleks 4 Junked pre-1970
Planet of Giants 3 Junked 31/01/69
Wheel in Space 5 Junked 21/7/69

(Wiped page 84)

Also they were supposed to junk Wheel 6 but obviously didn't...

Wheel 6 was authorised to be junked but later paperwork notes that this episode and Seeds of Death 5 were to be retained for Enterprises use. This was confirmed by a Retention Authorisation form raised by Enterprises on 22/9/69. (Wiped p84)

A few specific records for Doctor Who material junked were kept by the Film Library (Wiped p85) including Power 6 and Wheel 5.
__________________________________

If you were to say that the 16mm prints of Power returned from Australia in 1975 were saved and are now in the possession of a private collector - there would be no evidence either way to say if you were correct or incorrect.

In the case of the 35mm Power 6 - there is no evidence it was "half inched", but there is paperwork evidence of it being junked. (Wiped p87).
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Black Orchid wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:52 pm
Servorobot wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:22 pm
Black Orchid wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:47 pm
Wiped! Updated edition page 84, 85 and 87:

Film library records show that the 35mm print of Power 6 was junked prior to 1976 - probably about 1969.
Hmm. Interesting since they kept the other ones.

So they recorded it as destroyed but not when. A bit slack in the record keeping department weren’t they?

Also they were supposed to junk Wheel 6 but obviously didn’t..

Lots of probablys written there. As you can see the record keeping is not very consistent and I’m not sure you can draw a reliable conclusion.
I am quoting from Richard Molesworth's book. I have no original thoughts on this.
:)

Hmm. Interesting since they kept the other ones:

The Daleks 4 Junked pre-1970
Planet of Giants 3 Junked 31/01/69
Wheel in Space 5 Junked 21/7/69

(Wiped page 84)

Also they were supposed to junk Wheel 6 but obviously didn't...

Wheel 6 was authorised to be junked but later paperwork notes that this episode and Seeds of Death 5 were to be retained for Enterprises use. This was confirmed by a Retention Authorisation form raised by Enterprises on 22/9/69. (Wiped p84)

A few specific records for Doctor Who material junked were kept by the Film Library (Wiped p85) including Power 6 and Wheel 5.
__________________________________

If you were to say that the 16mm prints of Power returned from Australia in 1975 were saved and are now in the possession of a private collector - there would be no evidence either way to say if you were correct or incorrect.

In the case of the 35mm Power 6 - there is no evidence it was "half inched", but there is paperwork evidence of it being junked. (Wiped p87).
True, but not the crucial date this act of destruction was performed, which for destructions (from a record keeping perspective) are essential to prove such destruction took place.

I’m merely commenting from a professional angle here. Usually if something has been destroyed you have a date or a destruction certificate with the date to prove it. It seems very slipshod to me.

The lack of proof of the physical destruction is what makes these things seem more open ended than they really should be.

No doubt it was junked, but I’ve also read it may have disappeared, so you can see how the lack of complete records can cause these things to happen. As you’ve noted Giants 3 and Wheel 5 do have a destruction date, so why don’t the others?

I’ve posted this before, but this leaves the Power 6 destruction open ended and implies it may not have been junked but has disappeared., ie stolen. Make of that what you will.

https://www.mevagissey.net/Missing.htm

For Wiped accuracy see the bit about the recovery of Toymaker 4 in the ABC bond store and the response by Jon Preddle on BroaDWcast. The ABC purchase dates listed in Wiped are actually the dates the Censorship Board viewed the prints, not the date they were purchased. The fact there’s a purchase date for both Mission and DMP is a bit of a giveaway.

They’re all interesting reads in any event.
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Servorobot wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:11 pm
Black Orchid wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:52 pm
Servorobot wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:22 pm
Black Orchid wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:47 pm
Wiped! Updated edition page 84, 85 and 87:

Film library records show that the 35mm print of Power 6 was junked prior to 1976 - probably about 1969.
Hmm. Interesting since they kept the other ones.

So they recorded it as destroyed but not when. A bit slack in the record keeping department weren’t they?

Also they were supposed to junk Wheel 6 but obviously didn’t..

Lots of probablys written there. As you can see the record keeping is not very consistent and I’m not sure you can draw a reliable conclusion.
I am quoting from Richard Molesworth's book. I have no original thoughts on this.
:)

Hmm. Interesting since they kept the other ones:

The Daleks 4 Junked pre-1970
Planet of Giants 3 Junked 31/01/69
Wheel in Space 5 Junked 21/7/69

(Wiped page 84)

Also they were supposed to junk Wheel 6 but obviously didn't...

Wheel 6 was authorised to be junked but later paperwork notes that this episode and Seeds of Death 5 were to be retained for Enterprises use. This was confirmed by a Retention Authorisation form raised by Enterprises on 22/9/69. (Wiped p84)

A few specific records for Doctor Who material junked were kept by the Film Library (Wiped p85) including Power 6 and Wheel 5.
__________________________________

If you were to say that the 16mm prints of Power returned from Australia in 1975 were saved and are now in the possession of a private collector - there would be no evidence either way to say if you were correct or incorrect.

In the case of the 35mm Power 6 - there is no evidence it was "half inched", but there is paperwork evidence of it being junked. (Wiped p87).
True, but not the crucial date this act of destruction was performed, which for destructions (from a record keeping perspective) are essential to prove such destruction took place.

I’m merely commenting from a professional angle here. Usually if something has been destroyed you have a date or a destruction certificate with the date to prove it. It seems very slipshod to me.

The lack of proof of the physical destruction is what makes these things seem more open ended than they really should be.

No doubt it was junked, but I’ve also read it may have disappeared, so you can see how the lack of complete records can cause these things to happen. As you’ve noted Giants 3 and Wheel 5 do have a destruction date, so why don’t the others?

I’ve posted this before, but this leaves the Power 6 destruction open ended and implies it may not have been junked but has disappeared., ie stolen. Make of that what you will.

https://www.mevagissey.net/Missing.htm

For Wiped accuracy see the bit about the recovery of Toymaker 4 in the ABC bond store and the response by Jon Preddle on BroaDWcast. The ABC purchase dates listed in Wiped are actually the dates the Censorship Board viewed the prints, not the date they were purchased. The fact there’s a purchase date for both Mission and DMP is a bit of a giveaway.

They’re all interesting reads in any event.
The attachment by Michael Phillips was last updated in 1996 and he thanks Richard Molesworth for archive information.

Perhaps the junking record for Power 6 discussed on p.87 of Wiped was not available to Richard Molesworth in 1996?

It's true that different conclusions are possible from reading the same material as Jon Preddle points out in his review of Wiped!

https://broadwcast.org/index.php/Wiped_Reviewed

If the 35mm print of Power 6 ever turns up, I'll fly over to Australia and buy you a pint!
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Yartek wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:26 am
Black Orchid wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 10:56 am

DERVISH: If we attack any more beacons, we'll have the whole of the Interstellar Space Corps in this sector.
CAVEN: Look, as of this moment, the Space Corps has its hands full of trouble. Bush fire wars in three different sectors. There's never been a better time for getting rich.
Thankyou! :)

Now, what's a Bush fire war in space I wonder?

I have just started reading the novelisation and notice that Terrance might have scratched his head for a moment before "tweaking" the lines a bit....


...................................................................................................

"I'm not asking you to like it. Just get those scissor-charges in position."

"We'll bring the whole darn Space Corps down on us if we go on attacking beacons at this rate."

Caven shook his head. "Right now the Space Corps has got trouble on it's hands all over the galaxy - little wars in dozens of different sectors. There's never been a better time for getting rich."
:x


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Black Orchid, if the 35mm print of Power 6 ever does turn up then we should have a Mondas drinking Zoomathon.

Not much chance of us doing anything else for a while.

Maybe it’s one of Phil’s collector 6! :D
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WEEK THREE (OF 97): The Space Pirates Episode 4.


First transmission
Episode 4 – Saturday 29 March 1969


RADIO TIMES:

Part 4: With Milo's help the trio escape - but the pirates have set a terrible trap for them.







_________________________________________________________________



Episode 5 will be up for watching on Saturday 24th October



.
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Space Pirates episode 4 – Caven’s Caverns


Ooh look. We’re trapped in a small chamber with no visible means of escape. Again.

Unusually Jamie’s the one who twists his ankle. It’s never a bust elbow or knee is it?

Hermack gives Ian a dressing down. No, not that sort.

Ahh, this is the episode where the Doctor employs a tuning fork to break an ‘audio lock’. A tuning fork the Doctor just happened to have on him. Hmmm. I wonder if he could have used some other small, portable device that operates over a wide range of frequencies??

Ian , I know I said you were a useless pilot, and I know we’ve just had to rescue you and I know you haven’t had time to take a pee, but….. but I want you to take a minnow out again Ian. ”Right you are Sir.” Idiot.

Hermack sees an indistinct blob on his scanner, makes a whole bunch of assumptions and tells Warne to “Blast Away!”
“Right Sir! I’ll bring back a chunk of her!” says Ian. What a pair of pricks.

Anyway, it’s lucky for Dervish that Hermack spotted that model of a Beta Dart back at Madeline’s pad. If Hermack hadn’t asked about that model, he wouldn’t have learned about her stripy nosecone thing and Dervish would have been blasted by Ian. Who needs a cloaking device when you can have a fake nose? Someone should contact DARPA.

Then we have a lot of running around tunnels.

Then a very humdrum ‘cliffhanger’.

Oh...and Sorba....why?



OK, not as dull as episode 2 and a stock imprisoned/escaped episode with Jamie happy to kill guards and the Doctor happy to set a lethal boobytrap to aid their escape. The plot stops for this filler episode. Things will pick up again in episode 5 surely.

Things we'd learn if this episode came back - not a great deal.
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My heart sank when our heroes landed in another inescapable cell, which didn't bode well for this installment. Was it to be another 25 minutes of desperate effort used in not getting out of the cell.

One good thing about this rewatch is that the story is starting to make a lot more sense now that we are being encouraged to focus on it. The cellmate Sorba seems an early echo of the Salateen "old lag" scene, but - unless I missed something (which is entirely possible after just the one viewing so far) but I am at a loss as to why Sorba has been kept alive in the first place?

General Hermack has never sounded as disappointed in his beloved Major Warne as he does here, with the whole copper needles malarkey, but he is soon back to calling him "Eee-yan" so presumably all is forgiven. Sad to think that Warne's career went so badly wrong later that he changed his name to his mother's maiden name, Eckersley and started piddling about with the affairs of Peladon, but that's for Big Finish to chronicle in 12 largely uneventful box sets.

Frankly the Doctor, Jamie and Zoe are starting to grate a little with their continued suspicion of Clancy. He has to spell out for them that he has saved their lives once, warned them not to wander off and has now spent an hour trying to open the stupid door, all while holding a gun that he could shoot them with, but hasn't - before they finally grasp that he might actually be a non-threat. The Doctor in particular is usually a much better judge of character than this.

Another lost moment, that surely would have been used in clip shows already is the obvious, but still amusing moment when the Doctor finds out that the control panel is connected and gets a nasty shock - as Zoe observes.

The Doctor's "I'm not a magician!" to Zoe somehow felt wrong too. Surely that is exactly what he is?

Milo and our heroes continue to be witless fools as they make their way in a lift (which made me think of Morgus pushing that president down his) to Madeline's office, without ever once asking themselves how she could in any way not be involved, considering that she is sitting at the heart of matters, like a spider at the centre of a web. Our heroes used to be brighter than this.

Am finding this story to be disrespectful to the character of the Doctor. He usually plays the fool, hiding his brilliant Columbo-like deductions and awareness of what's really going on. Here he is led like a fool from one calamity to another and doesn't realise who the bad people are - and even suspects a daft old anti-authority figure like Clancy.

That's not to say that I dislike the story yet though. I am enjoying it and watching it properly for the first time makes me like it more, just with reservations of how the Doctor is being written. Certainly the plot is at last making sense, considering I had no clear idea of the details and individual scenes until forcing myself to sit down and really concentrate on each episode like this.

I would only have disliked this episode if they were still stuck in that cell with Sorba at the end of it. Thankfully they weren't and had moved along in the narrative all the way to Madeline's office, with two episodes still to go. Will the last two episodes be padded affairs or are there still a good few twists and turns yet to come in the last third of this neglected tale. Am looking forward to finding out.

Whole tale so far - just scraping 7 out of 10 still - but there's time for that to drop. I don't see the final score being higher than that though. But am not hating it at all. It just seems like as good a space opera romp as any and can't - bar the way it's writing the Doctor a bit - understand yet why it is so loathed as standard by received fan wisdom.
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Yartek wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:39 am


Ian , I know I said you were a useless pilot, and I know we’ve just had to rescue you and I know you haven’t had time to take a pee, but….. but I want you to take a minnow out again Ian. ”Right you are Sir.” Idiot.



I must admit, I am getting a bit fed up of seeing Warne fizzog on the television screen as he takes her out yet again. And whenever I see him on there, I can't help but be reminded of THE SEEDS OF DEATH with the Grand Marshall Ice Warrior on the telly screen in that story. :lol:

Yartek wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:39 am

Hermack sees an indistinct blob on his scanner, makes a whole bunch of assumptions and tells Warne to “Blast Away!”
“Right Sir! I’ll bring back a chunk of her!” says Ian. What a pair of pricks.

:lol:

Yartek wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:39 am



Anyway, it’s lucky for Dervish that Hermack spotted that model of a Beta Dart back at Madeline’s pad. If Hermack hadn’t asked about that model, he wouldn’t have learned about her stripy nosecone thing and Dervish would have been blasted by Ian. Who needs a cloaking device when you can have a fake nose? Someone should contact DARPA.

I got to wondering about that a bit - Loose Cannon wise. I am assuming that the reconstructors just had to take a guess as to what the nosecone whatsit looked like and that they could be wildly off the mark? Unless there are design sketches somewhere or something.


Yartek wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:39 am


OK, not as dull as episode 2 and a stock imprisoned/escaped episode with Jamie happy to kill guards and the Doctor happy to set a lethal boobytrap to aid their escape.
Yes, that scene immediately reminded me very much of Old Sixie in VENGEANCE, with his vine trap and that laser gun thing at the start. The kind of thing Colin embraced and never questioned - but so out of character for the second Doctor (or not, considering that he never put a warning sign on the resealed Cybertomb doors, almost certainly guaranteeing some innocent soul would die the next time the tombs were rediscovered and someone cheerfully offered fifty quid?). But deliberate calculated murder... yeah, I do wonder if Holmes had yet grasped the character of the Doctor - and am almost tempted to go back and watch the Krotons as I don't remember any arguable gaffs like this with the Doctor's (and Jamie's) character in that. :?
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ZOE: What are you carrying drawing pins for?
DOCTOR: I like drawing pins. Ouch. Normally.

The Doctor has little to do, Jamie and Zoe even less so. Normally Jamie and / or Zoe would be separated from the Doctor and have a sub plot of their own but not in this story so far.

The episode benefits from having more of Dudley Foster and less of Gordon Gostelow. In common with other lesser sung villans like Captain Edal (The Savages) and The Marshal ( The Mutants) Caven is a utterly ruthless character. He coldly threatens Dervish with destruction and kills Lieutenant Sorba without a qualm. I enjoyed Sorba's performance, minor as it was (the actor had quite a large television CV).

Ridiculous that Hermack still hasn't twigged that the Pirates are using Madeline's Beta Dart.

A reasonably paced runaround 6/10.

6/10 overall so far.
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Cygnus Prime wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:12 am

General Hermack has never sounded as disappointed in his beloved Major Warne as he does here, with the whole copper needles malarkey, but he is soon back to calling him "Eee-yan" so presumably all is forgiven.
These two are hopeless. Given suitable direction they could have been a memorable comedy duo.

Cygnus Prime wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:12 am
Sad to think that Warne's career went so badly wrong later that he changed his name to his mother's maiden name, Eckersley and started piddling about with the affairs of Peladon, but that's for Big Finish to chronicle in 12 largely uneventful box sets.
;)
Cygnus Prime wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:12 am
Another lost moment, that surely would have been used in clip shows already is the obvious, but still amusing moment when the Doctor finds out that the control panel is connected and gets a nasty shock - as Zoe observes.
Also the bit where Jamie grabs the tuning fork and throws it down would be fun to see.

Cygnus Prime wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:12 am
Whole tale so far - just scraping 7 out of 10 still - but there's time for that to drop. I don't see the final score being higher than that though. But am not hating it at all. It just seems like as good a space opera romp as any and can't - bar the way it's writing the Doctor a bit - understand yet why it is so loathed as standard by received fan wisdom.
I think it's just, unmemorable. Certainly not due for 'Enemy ' style revisionism if it were found but not a complete crapfest.
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WEEK FOUR (OF 97): The Space Pirates Episode .


First transmission
Episode 5 – Saturday 5 April 1969


RADIO TIMES:

Part 5: The trio escape, thanks to a brilliant trick of the Doctor's. Separated from his friends, the Doctor faces almost certain death.







_________________________________________________________________



Episode 6 will be up for watching on Saturday 31st October

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The Space Pirates Episode 5 – Dom and Dumber

And…… back to the plot…..

So I sort of enjoyed this in a daft sort of way. Dudley Foster really gets to let rip as Caven and he’s the best thing in this . It is a crying shame that he’s not in the retained episode.
I love his scene telling Madeline how things really are. He’s thoroughly nasty.

Talking of whom, Madeleine Issigri does not not do will in this episode. Happy to turn a blind eye to Caven’s crimes until she sees people being murdered in her own office and she suddenly gets cold feet. I can actually understand why Caven gets annoyed with her.

So having spent the last episode escaping from a cell and getting to Issigri HQ the Doctor and his companions are taken away to be locked up. Three cells in 5 episodes, it feels as though Mr Holmes doesn’t know what to do with the main character. No wonder Pat was getting fed up with the show.

Warne reports in. He must still be smarting from Hermack’s earlier comments and makes a thorough check on Lobos. Well done Ian.

Zoe doesn’t know how candles work and seems unsure what they look like.I know she’s from the future but I find that a stretch. . A missed opportunity for some priceless one-upmanship from Jamie there.

Why did Caven lock the prisoners up with Dom Issigri? That’s his worst idea yet.

The relationship between Dervish and Caven is a nice foil to Ian and Hermack. Whereas Ian is compliant and subservient because of his duty, Dervish is reluctantly towing the line through fear.

Madeleine believes Caven has kept her father alive for years on the strength of a recent photo. Hasn’t she heard of Snapchat?

Dom has clearly become deranged after years of torture and isolation at the hands of Caven and his minions, but soon perks up when he meets Milo. For me it’s the other way round.

Milo connecting with Dom.It’s supposed to be a touching scene but I just can’t get past that accent. This really needs the visuals to sell it.

Now, are we to believe that Dom hasn’t seen his his daughter ‘Maddy’ since she was five? I’ve heard of the ‘Long Game’ but Madeleine must be Thirty? Did Caven kidnap Dom when he was a teenager? Confused.

I like the scene where the Guard talks back to Madeleine points up the power shift nicely. Then he calls over his mate. I thought he was Frank but the transcript site has him down as Fraze? I prefer Frank.

Funny how Madeleine asks Dervish how a ‘man like him’ got mixed up with Dervish. I think she needs to take a long hard look at herself.


Things we’d learn if this story came back;-
What Dom Issigri looks like and how his study and portrait looked.

Next week - Can the Doctor get locked up in a cell again? Will Madeleine take any responsibility for anything? Will Dom Issigri retire to Craggy Isle?.........
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Yartek wrote:

Zoe doesn’t know how candles work and seems unsure what they look like.I know she’s from the future but I find that a stretch. . A missed opportunity for some priceless one-upmanship from Jamie there.


Zoe would also have seen candles in The Mind Robber episode 3.
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I just gave the poll for the rewatches a shake up - admittedly a bit late in the day for this first story - as the previous poll was really just a dupicate of the one here....

Rate "The Space Pirates"

viewtopic.php?f=70&t=7807


Now we are asked which single episode we would least like returned from this story. :death:

Of course, knowing Sod's Law, that will then be the one that turns up! :lol:

I was originally going to have it as the single episode you most want to turn up, but thought it might be more fun this way. :)
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DOCTOR: Jamie, pass me that marble will you?
JAMIE: This one?
DOCTOR: The green one. Thank you very much. It's one of my favourites.
__________________

The worst episode yet and a very noisy one. Everyone seems to be shouting.

As well as having magnets, a tuning fork and drawing pins in his pockets - the Doctor also has a bag of marbles.

For the first time in the story Jamie and Zoe leave the Doctor's side at the end of episode 5.

4/10 - can't wait for this story to end now.

5.5/10 overall so far
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