THAT TIME MARINUS BECAME MONDAS: Do We Ignore Printed Continuity? (Comics/Novels, Etc.)

Discussion of Doctor Who books, from annuals to Target, Virgin and BBC Books to Fanzines and the official Doctor Who Magazine
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Should we take the continuity originating in the printed medium seriously?

YES: I like to think of the whole of Doctor Who (TV, books, comics - perhaps even the annuals) as one... thing. And any contradictions can be cleverly explained away. Heck, all of this continuity madness is part of the fun! : )
0
No votes
TORN: I would like to think it is all one thing, but some of those contradictions give me headaches. I guess I pick and choose what's canon - and either ignore the awkward bits or don't count certain tales.
2
33%
NO: TV Doctor Who is all that ultimately matters. Everything else is throwaway fun (or sometimes pure garbage) and can't be taken seriously.
4
67%
 
Total votes: 6
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Cygnus Prime
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Remember that time when Marinus - a.k.a. Planet 14 - became Mondas, home of the Cybermen - and the Voord were the early versions of those silver terrors.....

And what about that time the Capaldi Doctor referenced this story - THE WORLD SHAPERS - in the show, thus making it canon?

And that time the Delgado Master met the Troughton Doctor?

How seriously should we take continuity from the printed medium?

And should New Who be endorsing such quirky printed tales by sleight of hand in such a way - or keeping itself to itself?



THE DOCTOR FALLS;

MASTER: See? This used to be just a hospital. Now it's mass production. The Cyber Foundries.

MISSY: The whole city is a machine to turn people into Cybermen. What do you think? Exciting, isn't it? Watching the Cybermen getting started.

DOCTOR: They always get started. They happen everywhere there's people. Mondas, Telos, Earth, Planet 14, Marinus. Like sewage and smartphones and One of the unmentionables, some things are just inevitable.


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Cygnus Prime
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No, am not listening Eric! This never happened!! :behindsofa:


https://doctorwho.livejournal.com/3620024.html


https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/Birth_of ... r%20source.



Birth of a Renegade was a short prose story published in 1983 by the Radio Times in its Doctor Who 20th Anniversary Special. It was intended to reveal Susan Foreman's origin.

These accounts of Susan's origins have not been reflected in any other source. The story states that Susan is not in fact related to the Doctor, but is instead a descendant of Rassilon. This is a retcon which goes against the intent of the original programme makers who devised the character of Susan as the Doctor's granddaughter. A different account of Susan's origins, in which she is not exactly the Doctor's granddaughter, but instead the granddaughter of the Other, who was later reincarnated as the Doctor, is found in the novel Lungbarrow.

The impetus to say that Susan was not actually the Doctor's descendant came from the belief, widely held among fans in the 1980s and 1990s, that the Doctor is asexual, and thus could not have any actual offspring. This belief was also the official policy of producer John Nathan-Turner, who was often quoted as saying, "There's no hanky-panky in the TARDIS." Thus, this retcon by script editor Eric Saward was in tune with the intentions of the 1980s production team, even if it was at odds with the intentions of the original 1960s production team.

In the 21st century revival of Doctor Who, the Doctor has been depicted as a sexual and occasionally flirtatious being, and he has referred to himself as having been a father (in TV: The Empty Child, Fear Her and The Doctor's Daughter), so the notion of him also being a grandfather is generally no longer considered an issue. In the 2013 episode TV: The Rings of Akhaten, the Doctor, for the first time since the revival began, explicitly states that he has a granddaughter.


Summary

Tegan is not happy when the Fifth Doctor decides to answer a distress call from Sector 19, in the spiral of Alpha 4, a remote area on the fringe of a supernova. Arriving near the source of the signal, the Doctor is disturbed to find it is coming from an enormous battle cruiser. The cruiser appears undamaged. Unlike other warships, it doesn't carry any identifying insignia or identification. The Doctor, Tegan and Turlough are even more alarmed when they find that the TARDIS is being drawn to the cruiser by a tractor beam that is somehow using the TARDIS' own power against it.

The Doctor, working under the console, shuts off the TARDIS's power for a moment. There is enough energy left to dematerialise when the break in power releases the TARDIS from the tractor beam. The TARDIS materialises safely onboard the battle cruiser. They explore the vast craft in near total darkness — bar the minuscule light from the Doctor's pen torch. The Doctor, Tegan and Turlough are blinded and disorientated by a bright light when a door opens. A moment later they are prisoners of three Cybermen who appear to be assisting the Master.

The Master reveals that the battle cruiser is his TARDIS, disguised as a battle cruiser (with his working chameleon circuit) to suit the Cybermen. The Master's plan is to bring the Time Lords to their knees, not by war but by "securing power by legally exploiting the constitution!" As they are marched through the TARDIS corridors, the Master talks of Gallifrey's past. He recounts the final corrupt days of Lord President Pundat the Third. The Master remembers the Doctor as a crusty, eccentric man, one of the finest TARDIS engineers ever.

The Master remembers more than the Doctor, who realises he has had selective memories wiped — just as the Master had told him. The Master explains that students revolted against Pundat the Third but were ruthlessly put down. The students wanted to replace Pundat's rule (in which the Lord President chose his own successor) with Rassilon's Law, hereditary rule by a descendant of Rassilon.

The students had tried to recruit the Doctor, but he he had decided to side with the status quo, the constitution and Lord Pundat. When Pundat died of stress soon after the revolt, his chosen successor was the evil Chancellor Slann. The students had found the last of Lord Rassilon's descendants: Lady Larn, a seven-year old child adopted by Councillor Brolin. They decided on a second coup. Yet in trying to convert the Doctor, the students were overheard. The Doctor, innocent of the students' revolt, was too highly respected to be terminated like the other students. It was decided to wipe parts of his memory.

Bloody reprisals against the students followed, and the Doctor decided to leave Gallifrey in a TARDIS. As it happened, the Lady Larn was hiding in the same TARDIS that the Doctor stole; the Doctor knew her as Susan and she affectionately called him "grandfather".

The Master, Tegan rightly guesses, was behind both student uprisings. Believing the students ready for the second, he assassinated Lord President Slann. However, the students weren't ready and the Master fled.

Once more, claims the Master, Gallifrey is leaderless and politically unstable, the people are crying out for leadership, for a descendant of Rassilon. The Master plans to return with his army of Cybermen (to whom he has promised the knowledge of time travel) and rule with Susan as his puppet. However, the Master realises that Doctor, his biggest adversary, must be disposed of first.

When Susan is reunited with the Doctor, she refuses to help the Master. She defends the Doctor from the Master and his Tissue Compression Eliminator. As the Cybermen move to separate the Doctor and Susan, the Doctor launches himself at the Master, knocking the Eliminator from his hand. Susan fires as the Cybermen close in. The Master tells the Cybermen not to shoot lest Susan be killed.

In the stalemate the Doctor leads his companions back to the TARDIS. With the Master's exposed roundels in the corridor draining the energy to maintain the vast battle cruiser, Susan stops and fires the Eliminator. The damage destablises the Master's TARDIS. The Doctor, Tegan, Turlough and Susan just make the safety of the Doctor's TARDIS. The Doctor sets the co-ordinates to return Susan home. Outside, the Master is consumed by hate as the walls around him collapse and his TARDIS disintegrates, but the Doctor believes that he hasn't seen the end of him.

Characters edit
Fifth Doctor
Tegan Jovanka
Turlough
Susan Foreman
The Master
Cybermen



References

Tegan mentions the Daleks. The Doctor recalls the Ice Warriors and the Terileptils.
Cyberman blood/fluid is green.
Notes edit
"TARDIS" is spelled "Tardis" throughout this story.
"Rassilon" is misspelled "Rasillon" twice in this story.
Lady Larn is said to be seven years old when she left Gallifrey with the Doctor, but by the time of An Unearthly Child she is fifteen (or, by some accounts, lying and even older). This suggests the Doctor and his 'granddaughter' had been travelling together for at least eight years before arriving in Totter's Yard.
In the illustration of Susan firing the Master's Tissue Compression Eliminator, the weapons does not resemble the TCE as seen in any TV story.
The illustrations of the Master make him resemble his then-current incarnation, as played by Anthony Ainley.
The Fifth Doctor is illustrated without a stick of celery on his lapel.
The name of the character Larna, from The Infinity Doctors and Unnatural History, appears to be a reference to Susan being named as "the Lady Larn" in this story.
Continuity edit
This Doctor wishes he still had his sonic screwdriver. (TV: The Visitation)
The Master's assassination of Lord President Slann predates his murder of the Lord President in TV: The Deadly Assassin, although the assassination of the Lord President in that story is strongly suggested to be unprecedented.



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Cygnus Prime
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To be honest, it strikes me that Eric was here attempting something that the later showrunners would also misguidedly do years later - and that is provide a supposedly interesting story of the Doctor's origins that was imo actually misguided, disappointing and lame.

Why not just preserve the mystery?

Is it ego? That need to be the one to provide the answer to questions that no one really wants answering - and the overconfidence that thinks the answer you are providing will be a satisfactory one? :?
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Cygnus Prime wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:19 am
That need to be the one to provide the answer to questions that no one really wants answering...
There's no answer to that, to quote Eric Morecambe.
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The poll doesn't go far enough. Classic Who on TV is the only canon. :)
(Doctor Who) has been hijacked and redefined as a lucrative modern franchise. They've literally taken a square peg and painfully made it fit a round hole by taking enormous liberties with much of its fundamental essence. There's no turning back now.

- ozymandias, The Leisure Hive 2010
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This is really two issues.

First the whole "Marinus=Mondas" thing came about because people were taking information from different eras, and trying to make it all fit together nice and neat.

The Cybermen had explicitly stated that humans originating from Earth were the only non-Mondasian creatures who the cybertechnolgoy was able to cyberconvert. So, you'd never get something stupid like Cyberthals or Cybergalligreyans. That would just be stupid.

But, in The Keys of Marinus, Ian was examined by people from Marinus, and his biology was identical to theirs. And Marinus wasn't an Earth colony. Add to that that iconic scene of the bloke coming out of the ice in The Keys of Marinus(which came before Tomb of the Cybermen, and then the million inferior attempts to recreate it), and if everything was supposed to fit together Marinus had to be Mondas.

Of course, that was never the original intention of Kit Pedler and Gerry Davis when they wrote The Tenth Planet. And it would mean that Terry Nation could claim he invented the Cybermen as well...

As for the printed word in general, I have different personal rules.

If it's a Target novelisation written by the original author, script editor, or someone working closely with the Production Team at the time, and it doesn't contradict the television episodes, it's as "canonical" as the television episodes.

For my personal canon comics, original novels, short stories etc. are on an individual basis.

In fact, I can happily dismiss the entire Virgin Books Era, as they contradicted the television series all the time, and they couldn't even get their own internal continuity straight.

As a rule, if it's good, if it isn't someone trying to overwrite television lore in print, then I can happily accept it. But that doesn't mean the people at the BBC will.
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iank wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:57 pm
The poll doesn't go far enough. Classic Who on TV is the only canon. :)
Not totally sure about anything post-Hartnell, really.
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Cygnus Prime wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:19 am
Why not just preserve the mystery?
I feel trying to preserve the 'mystery' can be just as tedious

If they adhered to that philosophy from the get go, the show would have ended at series six, as the public had grown a bit tired of the programme as it was by then. Starting to add some layers and reveal more of The Doctor served the programme well, people got more invested in unravelling what The Doctor was, at the very least partially, all about.

The classic show did a lot to reveal more of The Doctor over time, with scarce details on his childhood here and there, but by the end of those 26 years we got the general gist. Even their attempts at giving him more of a concealed past in his Seventh incarnation were as subtle as a brick and you could easily piece together the backstory even without reading Lungbarrow or the Remembrance novelisation. This is why I ultimately feel Nu Who is quite unnecessary, there was very little mystery left to invest in with the character...and that was fine. I'd rather the show be about the exploration of the universe and how it affects those travelling along it.

I'm no less a fan because of things like Lungbarrow or the Timeless Child, though I'm annoyed more at the latter because it resets the mystery and renders the added layers a kind of a "dead skin", where as Lungbarrow I'm less offended by because at least it's optional. Cracking book nevertheless.
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I think the problem with the Timeless Child is that it's a total rewrite that doesn't really add anything. After all that stuff Chibs revealed - so what? If it doesn't give us a decent story, as, say, introducing the Monk as another one of the Doctor's race did, what's the point?
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LizR wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:37 pm
I think the problem with the Timeless Child is that it's a total rewrite that doesn't really add anything. After all that stuff Chibs revealed - so what? If it doesn't give us a decent story, as, say, introducing the Monk as another one of the Doctor's race did, what's the point?
I didn’t feel it added anything either. I was just ‘so what’ when watching, the stuff in Ireland was nicely done but the nonsense about Tegucigalpa and the child was pointless. It was the big build up to the season finale which just went on far too long and was just dull.
J'aime Le Chameau Orteil.
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LizR wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:37 pm
I think the problem with the Timeless Child is that it's a total rewrite that doesn't really add anything. After all that stuff Chibs revealed - so what? If it doesn't give us a decent story, as, say, introducing the Monk as another one of the Doctor's race did, what's the point?
I feel it did have a point, just not one that'll be immediately apparent until the 60th...whee It gives the Doctor an excuse to leave our universe behind and go 'home'.
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Zarius wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:46 pm
LizR wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:37 pm
I think the problem with the Timeless Child is that it's a total rewrite that doesn't really add anything. After all that stuff Chibs revealed - so what? If it doesn't give us a decent story, as, say, introducing the Monk as another one of the Doctor's race did, what's the point?
I feel it did have a point, just not one that'll be immediately apparent until the 60th...whee It gives the Doctor an excuse to leave our universe behind and go 'home'.
Do you really think so?
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Zarius
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LizR wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 1:02 am
Zarius wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:46 pm
LizR wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:37 pm
I think the problem with the Timeless Child is that it's a total rewrite that doesn't really add anything. After all that stuff Chibs revealed - so what? If it doesn't give us a decent story, as, say, introducing the Monk as another one of the Doctor's race did, what's the point?
I feel it did have a point, just not one that'll be immediately apparent until the 60th...whee It gives the Doctor an excuse to leave our universe behind and go 'home'.
Do you really think so?
It's certainly a theory I'm entertaining
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That time the BBC book range (and a David Whittaker novelisation) got endorsed......





https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/Tyron

Tyron

Tyron was a tiny planet in the seventeenth galaxy with "talking stones." The First Doctor, Ian Chesterton, Barbara Wright, and Vicki Pallister had an adventure there before their visit to Palestine in 1190. (PROSE: Doctor Who and the Crusaders)

Ian Chesterton later mentioned the talking stones of Tyron before telling of his adventure in Palestine. (HOMEVID: Ian Chesterton: An Introduction)



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https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/The_Witc ... rs_(novel)


The home video reconstruction segments of The Crusade released one year after The Witch Hunters make reference to the events of this story.



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That Saward story sounds absolute trash. It's like the Timeless Children in a way. Not quite as bad, but on a similar level of wanting to explain the Doctors past, which after so many decades when nothing could ever live up to it.

What is with these writers being more focused on rewriting the past than in telling a good story? Move on, that's the real way you bring about change than in f*****g up previous stories.

Marinus being Mondas was moronic too, as was Moffat's retcon that the Cybermen weren't one race, but parallel evolution.

FFS Capaldi says that the Cybermen begun on several unrelated worlds like Mondas and Telos, which doesn't make any sense. The Cybermen from Telos clearly just moved from Mondas. It's stated many, many times even in Tomb of the Cybermen.

To me Moffat just hasn't watched Classic Who in decades, same with Chibbers.
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I know it was only a comic strip - but I was quite upset at the time about Jamie! :death:



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Burrunman wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:14 pm
That Saward story sounds absolute trash. It's like the Timeless Children in a way. Not quite as bad, but on a similar level of wanting to explain the Doctors past, which after so many decades when nothing could ever live up to it.

What is with these writers being more focused on rewriting the past than in telling a good story? Move on, that's the real way you bring about change than in f*****g up previous stories.

Marinus being Mondas was moronic too, as was Moffat's retcon that the Cybermen weren't one race, but parallel evolution.

FFS Capaldi says that the Cybermen begun on several unrelated worlds like Mondas and Telos, which doesn't make any sense. The Cybermen from Telos clearly just moved from Mondas. It's stated many, many times even in Tomb of the Cybermen.

To me Moffat just hasn't watched Classic Who in decades, same with Chibbers.
Indeed. It is also one of the major plot points of Attack - that Telos is the homeworld of the Cryons, which the Cybermen invaded.
(Doctor Who) has been hijacked and redefined as a lucrative modern franchise. They've literally taken a square peg and painfully made it fit a round hole by taking enormous liberties with much of its fundamental essence. There's no turning back now.

- ozymandias, The Leisure Hive 2010
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