The 2018 Omnirumour Poll - PMF Grumpcast IV

Section for your polls, Doctor Who related and general.

Has Phil Morris (and associates) found more missing Doctor Who, and if so, how many? Grumpcast IV

Nope, nothing, nada, nyet, zilcheroony
20
16%
0-10 A few orphans maybe
29
24%
10-20 Perhaps a complete story, or enough to complete a story or two, plus a few orphans
32
26%
20-50 Lots of episodes - complete sets
29
24%
50-90 High end, height of omnirumourmadness stuff
8
7%
90-97 The lot, pretty much, save for perhaps one or two
5
4%
 
Total votes: 123
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Servorobot
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Of course I think he’s found more, but you’ll have to listen to the podcast to know how much and why. :D
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richardsmith
 
 
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Servorobot wrote:Of course I think he’s found more, but you’ll have to listen to the podcast to know how much and why. :D
Oh, you stole my line. Except that I've said 20 to 40 several times and in several places, so I won't be mysterious about that. But as for why, wait for the podcast.
Something Who is a podcast with many episodes:
https://somethingwho.podbean.com/

Most recently:
Episode 17, where I chat with Chris Chapman
Episode 18, where I chat with Toby Hadoke
Episode 19, where we discuss The Faceless Ones and The Idiot's Lantern
Episode 20, Missing Episodes with Steven Schapansky
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Servorobot
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richardsmith wrote:
Servorobot wrote:Of course I think he’s found more, but you’ll have to listen to the podcast to know how much and why. :D
Oh, you stole my line. Except that I've said 20 to 40 several times and in several places, so I won't be mysterious about that. But as for why, wait for the podcast.
Well so have I, but I was trying to be mysterious and see whose been paying attention. :D

20-50 it is, although these days I think it’s closer to 20 than 50, but whichever way you look at it it’s a whole lot better than the situation we were in in 2010 when this decade started.
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Hewy
 
 
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I *think* most here know my reasoning for a handful of orphans being recovered - it’s the only way I can make even remote sense of what has been happening. Phil is a fan keen as mustard. He therefore made comments which reflected his enthusiasm and passion rather than what a listener might assume Phil was hinting at or even confirming. Therefore a large majority of fans concluded after reading the Starburst and DWM articles that post the Web and Enemy reveal Phil had pretty much found everything. As well as that there seemed a case of Chinese Whispers were Phil would again hint to a fan or “uber” that such and such was found or recovered. This was further compounded by Phil or others close to him deliberately seeding false information to isolate and confirm leaks, to “pay back” and embarrass other “uber” fans and even to “smoke out” collectors with a convoluted plan to pretent to have an episode already to drive down the cost from a hoarder; perhaps wish fulfilment dream fantasy took over and of course just for shits and giggles. It swiftly got out of hand. Taking on a life of its own with no rumour beyond, not only belief, but confirmation and guaranteed recovery and eniment release.

In short Phil is holding out in hopes of completing or at least near completing at story. And at this point in time seemly lucked out.

I don’t think Phil has lied or a snake oil charmer, I think he is an excitable, eager fan who has done a fantastic job that ought to have been done by the BBC decades ago if for no other reason than cultural preservation. I think he has got himself in bind of seemingly promising the world and not being able to deliver.

He may also have had very good leads which just haven’t panned out or not had access to film archives and vaults which my indeed have more material. Perhaps due to political factors or interference from over zealous fans.

I don’t think we will ever hear the ful story In large because we have already been told the story and to further tell the story means admitting the hunt has got as far as it can and it also means Phil quitting it’s over and completed.

Mind you if this is true why doesn’t he just shut up and quietly go into the night? His reputation not only intact but enhanced nine missing episodes recovered due to his hard determined efforts. Why does he keep almost goading fans on Twitter - surely he can’t be that clueless. Why does he keep putting himself forward at conventions and still hint at finds? Why if he has a company which restores and preserves film material has there been not one twitter feed not one online comment from African archivists or broadcast stations commenting on his business? Somehow for at least part of the omnirumour history the likes of Dick F Of The BFI thought a huge find had been made. Surely he couldn’t be that gullible?.

If Marco Polo has been found and recovered why not release it? If there are sensitive behind the scenes goings on easy enough to mask or lie about where it was found. After all being a Season 1 serial it was “its” fiftieth anniversary not Web’s or Enemy’s. If Power has been found then why the expense of the BBC animating it. Phil has shown before when dealing with the animators that he will be fully supportive - Dad’s Army A Stripe For Frazer showed that.

It is really perplexing and emotional as we all would love nothing more that to see new old Doctor Who.
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Hewy wrote:I don’t think we will ever hear the ful story In large because we have already been told the story and to further tell the story means admitting the hunt has got as far as it can and it also means Phil quitting it’s over and completed.

Mind you if this is true why doesn’t he just shut up and quietly go into the night? His reputation not only intact but enhanced nine missing episodes recovered due to his hard determined efforts. Why does he keep almost goading fans on Twitter - surely he can’t be that clueless.
The thing is, I say the same thing about many American pro sports superstars. They could retire while people still want to argue they were the greatest ever and go on to years of endorsements and being an analyst or whatever. But no, they shoot their mouths off and go play a season or two, often with their team's rival where they aren't a good fit and piss their legacy away.
"The truth is, these are not very bright guys — and things got out of hand."
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I plumped for 10-20, probably at the lower end. I've long held that the most likely PM finds are from Seasons 1, 2 and 5, but I have lost optimism regarding S5 of late. Nevertheless, I think Phil wouldn't have said the things he did during the EotW SE interview and in the recent Q&A if there wasn't a good chance of finding more. If I had to guess, I'd say he'll have something from Marco, Reign and/or Crusades, perhaps the odd episode of Wheel, and -- because he loves a surprise -- something completely out of left field. So, let's hear it then for Space Pirates 1!

And if anyone on Team Grumpy can make a credible case for a Fury find, I'd love to hear it, as that's my top want.
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Ian Levine once said that it's either 90 or its nothing.

Well, it wasn't nothing (as we know), so maybe it is indeed 90 or 90+.

For those voting for 50 being found, that is itself a huge number. If 50 were found in some shed somewhere, there's no reason why 90 couldn't have been found in a shed (or several sheds). Big numbers are big numbers. In the same way that all the episodes of Enemy and all the episodes of Web were found at the same time, whole stories may have been located at the same time. The dynamic is different than having a film or two returned by a film collector.

I therefore voted for 90 - 97. (If I had a second choice vote, I would guess in the 50-something range.)
“We can't expect that recovery of lost footage would follow a particular timetable.”
— Douglas Wulf, Missing Episodes Forum, May 8, 2011

“Douglas is spot on.” — Paul Vanezis, Missing Episodes Forum, May 9, 2011
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I hovered between 20-50 and 50-90 because the known facts and the behavior of some people seems to fit both of these possibilities. I ended up playing it realisipessimistic and choosing 20-50.

Here's why I think we are hovering around the 50 mark:

I think after a few false starts they found stuff in the high teens relatively early on in the search -- Enemy, Web, and a few others (some may have been incomplete). There were a whole bunch of promising leads, and those led to some even more promising leads. I believe they've found some more since then in various states of repair and they are in the last stage of the game trying to get as much as they can to come out of the woodwork (collectors, and film archives who wouldn't play ball years earlier because of political issues). So we are in a holding pattern right now because they have stuff they can announce but they are choosing not to. The main reason being an obsessive desire to make this the one great last stab before the opportunity disappears forever, due to both the age of the films and the age of the principles involved. There's also the publicity involved with announcing such a find -- EW's announcement threw everything in disarray and made things much more difficult and expensive on Phil's end. However, they feel comfortable in making everyone else wait because they are confident people will be pleased with what they've found. But... gotta catch them all.

One other factor I think that has come into play (and something I've mentioned before on various fora) is the politics surrounding the original TIE and it's related companies like Watchguard International. Once everything is revealed I think we'll all be astonished at how much Doctor Who (and other stuff) survived due to the indirect influence of Sir David Stirling -- and this is where the really interesting story is and where the resulting books and documentaries will focus. My take on it is that some TIE facilities were "hands off" for many decades, precisely because of the political and espionage connections to WI. The contents of these archives laid idle for decades. When Phil went looking around for stuff he stumbled on these but gaining access to and taking anything out of them proved more difficult. Once inside, there was a treasure trove of material, not just films and tapes... but in paperwork that led to other leads.
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I voted 20-50 i think he may have about another 30-40 to hand back i base this on the original list that was doing the rounds before Omnirumour took hold.
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Rob Ocelot wrote:I hovered between 20-50 and 50-90 because the known facts and the behavior of some people seems to fit both of these possibilities. I ended up playing it realisipessimistic and choosing 20-50.

Here's why I think we are hovering around the 50 mark:

I think after a few false starts they found stuff in the high teens relatively early on in the search -- Enemy, Web, and a few others (some may have been incomplete). There were a whole bunch of promising leads, and those led to some even more promising leads. I believe they've found some more since then in various states of repair and they are in the last stage of the game trying to get as much as they can to come out of the woodwork (collectors, and film archives who wouldn't play ball years earlier because of political issues). So we are in a holding pattern right now because they have stuff they can announce but they are choosing not to. The main reason being an obsessive desire to make this the one great last stab before the opportunity disappears forever, due to both the age of the films and the age of the principles involved. There's also the publicity involved with announcing such a find -- EW's announcement threw everything in disarray and made things much more difficult and expensive on Phil's end. However, they feel comfortable in making everyone else wait because they are confident people will be pleased with what they've found. But... gotta catch them all.

One other factor I think that has come into play (and something I've mentioned before on various fora) is the politics surrounding the original TIE and it's related companies like Watchguard International. Once everything is revealed I think we'll all be astonished at how much Doctor Who (and other stuff) survived due to the indirect influence of Sir David Stirling -- and this is where the really interesting story is and where the resulting books and documentaries will focus. My take on it is that some TIE facilities were "hands off" for many decades, precisely because of the political and espionage connections to WI. The contents of these archives laid idle for decades. When Phil went looking around for stuff he stumbled on these but gaining access to and taking anything out of them proved more difficult. Once inside, there was a treasure trove of material, not just films and tapes... but in paperwork that led to other leads.

Great post Rob and you made some very interesting points.
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Dear Grumpcasters
I plumped for around 50 - Why? I am on hols and feeling optimistic at present.
My thinking is based on several things.
The original rumours from early 2013. Also Phil’s vaugue words “ the wind is blowing in the right direction” seems to indicate to me that there is a bureaucratic reason for the current hold up - whether this is red tape or completing projects in various archives in order for the episodes to be released.
I also feel he may be using his finds to bargain with collector(s) who have episodes - you and only you can have power of the daleks episodes 1-6 for a year if you then return x or y.
All pure speculation of course but fun to do.
The grumpcast is great and a highlight when it pops into my inbox.
Keep up the “ grumpery”
Simon
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I've gone for 20-50 with some complete stories Marco Polo being one, there's been too much said about Marco including the DWM breakdown of said story, then suddenly nothing, I'm not having it!! Wheel in Space and Abominable snowman should have been with the Enemy and Web cans, that stands to reason?. Then there's the JCB incident, 3 o'clock in the morning Phil said with his head wrapped up ready for sunrise. He dug stuff up, deffo, what it was and what condition is open to question , maybe the Morecambe and Wise work is a precursor to renovation on those recovered cans? I think there's some season 3 , Galaxy 4 , The Myth Makers and The Massacre possibly even The Savages,? I think Dalek Master Plan is a stretch which is unfortunate but I'm trying to keep it real.
If you want to top it up to the full 50 then for me Hong Kong had stuff and Phil lifted it quick smart, that would be Macra Terror and Evil OF The Daleks. There's my reasons for the 20-50 . I went to Hong Kong myself in 2007 and was shocked at how many backstreet shops there was selling all manner of rarities. Unfortunately for us Who fans I was only interested in Bruce Lee merchandise ( which I found ) and didn't give Doctor Who a second thought, I hate myself for that but I can't turn back the clock.
Thanks for listening guys.
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Much as I would like to be proven wrong, I have voted for 0.

It is nearly 5 years since Enemy and Web were announced, and since then nowt. I don't blame Morris at all, if there is nothing out there to find, we can't blame him for not finding it, and I have seen and heard nothing to convince me that anything else has survived.

I have heard unsubstantiated rumours, I have read parsed statements, seen tube station photos, listend to "coded" interviews but there is nothing that persuades me that there is more to come.

I hope there is a shedload of recoveries around the corner, but when it all comes down to it, that is all we have, hope. And sadly, just because we really want something to exist, doesn't mean that it does.
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I've lumped for 20-50, but leaning towards the lower end. I feel as though there's been too much funny business from those higher up the chain for there not to have been some sort of significant find (or at least, that they *believed* there had been at some point).

If there has been a big find, odds are that Marco, Reign and Crusade would be part of it, surely? Bung in Abominable & Wheel and we're nearly at 20 already - if we take the station phoning up about seasons 1 & 2 in the '90s to have been in Nigeria, then it does suggest Phil Morris is on the money when he says "they don't throw anything away". We've already seen many episodes turn up there.

One outcome that I think unlikely is a bunch of orphan episodes. Almost all foreign station returns have been complete stories, exceptions being Reign 4,5 blown up, whatever happened to Web 3, and Toymaker 4. Audition prints are the only likely avenue for orphans*, and I think the chances are remote that he finds any of those - if they didn't pick the series up, then they'd have no reason to store the print (can't screen it), the Beeb likely wouldn't want them to keep it (in case they screen it without paying) so it would presumably have been bicycled onto the next prospective buyer or sent back home. If we're very lucky, Phil might have stumbled across one or two prints, or an oddity like Toymaker 4. But I doubt it.

(* Private collectors aside, but I think they're others' area rather than Phil's)

Overall, I think there's reason to be cautiously optimistic without taking heed of any rumours. The bicycling system is becoming more and more clear, explaining why we don't have 23 copies of Marco Polo already. Yet despite the small number of prints circulating, we've had lots of episodes return from overseas and the evidence that even as late as the '90s, many more prints were still kicking around in foreign archives. If all of those films could survive for so long, why not a few more...?
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I reluctantly voted for Zilch. :(

This debate as to whether PM has more has been going on for nearly five years now. I don't think he has anything else at the moment.

I am happy to be proved wrong. :)
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It's odd, it seems to me, to vote for zero when a couple of months ago we got this quote from Phil Morris on the topic of Web 3 ...

"The book’s not closed on that one. We’re pretty close, I think, to finding the last resting place of ‘The Web of Fear’ Episode 3. The job of recovering Doctor Who, I’m not finished. I think the door is open for future recoveries of Doctor Who. I don’t think that number will stay at 97. I feel confident that there’s more material to come forward.”
“We can't expect that recovery of lost footage would follow a particular timetable.”
— Douglas Wulf, Missing Episodes Forum, May 8, 2011

“Douglas is spot on.” — Paul Vanezis, Missing Episodes Forum, May 9, 2011
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Hewy
 
 
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DouglasWulf wrote:It's odd, it seems to me, to vote for zero when a couple of months ago we got this quote from Phil Morris on the topic of Web 3 ...

"The book’s not closed on that one. We’re pretty close, I think, to finding the last resting place of ‘The Web of Fear’ Episode 3. The job of recovering Doctor Who, I’m not finished. I think the door is open for future recoveries of Doctor Who. I don’t think that number will stay at 97. I feel confident that there’s more material to come forward.”
But a more recent convention appearance Phil was a lot more down beat about its recovery - go figure. I don’t have the quote to hand so I can’t really support it at present. Rock trumps scissors.
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VikingS wrote:I plumped for 10-20, probably at the lower end. I've long held that the most likely PM finds are from Seasons 1, 2 and 5, but I have lost optimism regarding S5 of late. Nevertheless, I think Phil wouldn't have said the things he did during the EotW SE interview and in the recent Q&A if there wasn't a good chance of finding more. If I had to guess, I'd say he'll have something from Marco, Reign and/or Crusades, perhaps the odd episode of Wheel, and -- because he loves a surprise -- something completely out of left field. So, let's hear it then for Space Pirates 1!

And if anyone on Team Grumpy can make a credible case for a Fury find, I'd love to hear it, as that's my top want.
Well the odds are a lot better after Phil’s little natter with Debbie Watling on the Web 6 commentary.
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Servorobot wrote:
VikingS wrote:I plumped for 10-20, probably at the lower end. I've long held that the most likely PM finds are from Seasons 1, 2 and 5, but I have lost optimism regarding S5 of late. Nevertheless, I think Phil wouldn't have said the things he did during the EotW SE interview and in the recent Q&A if there wasn't a good chance of finding more. If I had to guess, I'd say he'll have something from Marco, Reign and/or Crusades, perhaps the odd episode of Wheel, and -- because he loves a surprise -- something completely out of left field. So, let's hear it then for Space Pirates 1!

And if anyone on Team Grumpy can make a credible case for a Fury find, I'd love to hear it, as that's my top want.
Well the odds are a lot better after Phil’s little natter with Debbie Watling on the Web 6 commentary.
But does Phil’s comments mean what we interpret them to mean? What did Phil intend by the comment - if anything beyond idle chatter. Phil has “sounded” that positive before, often enough in fact, yet here we are still none the wiser.
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"...we had the satisfaction of finding the finest harbour in the world, in which a thousand sail of the line may ride in the most perfect security..."
— Governor Arthur Phillip, 15 May 1788 Sydney Cove - Port Jackson
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Hewy wrote:
Servorobot wrote:
VikingS wrote:I plumped for 10-20, probably at the lower end. I've long held that the most likely PM finds are from Seasons 1, 2 and 5, but I have lost optimism regarding S5 of late. Nevertheless, I think Phil wouldn't have said the things he did during the EotW SE interview and in the recent Q&A if there wasn't a good chance of finding more. If I had to guess, I'd say he'll have something from Marco, Reign and/or Crusades, perhaps the odd episode of Wheel, and -- because he loves a surprise -- something completely out of left field. So, let's hear it then for Space Pirates 1!

And if anyone on Team Grumpy can make a credible case for a Fury find, I'd love to hear it, as that's my top want.
Well the odds are a lot better after Phil’s little natter with Debbie Watling on the Web 6 commentary.
But does Phil’s comments mean what we interpret them to mean? What did Phil intend by the comment - if anything beyond idle chatter. Phil has “sounded” that positive before, often enough in fact, yet here we are still none the wiser.
All will be revealed young Hewy, but the devil is always in the bicycle chain. :D
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