Rate “The Woman Who Fell to Earth”

Rate “The Woman Who Fell to Earth”

10
10
5%
9
12
6%
8
27
14%
7
33
18%
6
21
11%
5
15
8%
4
8
4%
3
9
5%
2
12
6%
1
41
22%
 
Total votes: 188
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Servorobot
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Look, this thread is for your opinion on The Woman Who Fell to Earth.

Carrying on about feminism on the screen is only relevant if it specifically pertains to the episode and as it doesn’t (because there’s no evidence in the episode that this is the case) may I suggest you start up a thread in the Zero Room to discuss this further.

And whether or not James Bond will ever be a woman is completely irrelevant. I suggest you take your discussion of that here. viewtopic.php?f=61&t=4137&start=140
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LizR wrote:So it seems daft to me that RTD and Moff and CC feel they must have a female lead, or at least a Mary Sue in every episode, but it also seems to be a fact. So I feel that this is the logical conclusion, merging the Mary Sue into the main character. Hence, maybe paradoxically, my gut feeling is that Chibbs may have freed the programme to finally be what it's been trying to be all along, and as a result maybe it can now get on with what it should always have been, "exciting adventures in time and space."
This is a great perspective and one angle that I had never considered. Bravo, Liz.

I have two things to add to the discussion:

1) We've seen three on-screen 'regenderations' and two of them have involved Time Lords who have gone beyond their regular regeneration cycle so there's some wiggle room for in-continuity explanations for why it didn't happen the last 13 times. Both the Doctor and the Master have been variously described as somewhat unusual as far as Time Lords go -- the Doctor has a natural gift of excessive artron energy and the Master is a melting pot of life extension schemes and gambits. Both have used a chameleon arch to pass as humans so there's a huge precedent set for both individuals to have more flux in their genetics than most other Time Lords. It's my hope that Chibnall being a classic Doctor Who fan will incorporate an explanation for the gender change that satisfies the show's (admittedly loose) canon giving both old and new fans something to tune into. That, to my tastes would be more satisfying than the showrunners simply (and lazily) saying "This is how it always was and how it's going to be. Deal with it."

2) (This is going to be a little long-winded but bear with me)

Doctor Who as a concept broadly and as a show specifically has survived because it was not afraid to push the dramatic boundaries and retool itself into something different. The few times that Doctor Who tried to resist or ignore this ethos it died on the vine rather harshly -- but still it's survived, even if it had to be rested for a bit. Even when bad ideas invaded the concept they were either outright ignored by later writers or cleverly incorporated into the series canon. Still, the show and the concept survived.

Here's a rundown of some of things the show has done:

*Even during the First Doctor era they had no qualms about forcibly writing out a companion that wasn't gelling (the character literally *telephoned* it in, so to speak) or actually killing off two companions -- the kinds of things you generally didn't do in 'family oriented' shows, especially in the 1960s.

*The change of lead was groundbreaking for sure but they also weren't afraid to dump aspects that weren't working, like the stovepipe hat or the Doctor's internal monologues.

*The show changed lead again with an actor not known for drama, went to colour, jettisoned the TARDIS, gave the Doctor a car, and overall morphed into a Spy-Fi series with militaristic undertones. I still maintain to this day that SPEARHEAD FROM SPACE changed more of the show canon in one fell swoop than anything else in the entire history of the show. (Yes, that includes the TV Movie and the NuWho Series 11 opener)

(Also worth pointing out that during the Pertwee era the seeds for a potential female Doctor were sown. Don't believe me? Watch THE TIME MONSTER sequence where the Doctor had been sucked into the vortex and his unconsious thoughts are heard by Jo over the TARDIS telepathic circuits. They are voices of different people, and it's heavily implied they are the voices of both previous and potential future Doctors. One of them is clearly a female voice.)

*The show started to stagnate in the 1980s for a number of reasons. Chief among them was the show was taking less risks other than changing the lead every few years and even that was getting stale and derivative. The hiatus and eventual cancellation seems more like a mercy killing in retrospect.

*If the show can survive the dumpster fire that was the TV Movie then I think the Doctor Who concept is pretty well bulletproof. Heck, the TVM heavily implied that Time Lords could possibly change *species* during regeneration... after cack like that changing gender doesn't seem like a big deal, really.

*I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that NuWho was starting down the same road the show was going in the 1980s that got it axed the first time. The past few series had become quite samey in their sameiness. Capaldi was as about a tradiational Doctor as you could get and combined with the rash of uninspiring scripts it's no wonder the show got to the point where it had to radically change or be shelved for a few years to a decade. We were changing Doctors every couple of years, just like the 1980s too. Well, two things needed to happen... we needed a casting choice that would bring a fresh perspective to the show and not something as trite as 'The New Guy Who Once Played A Character Who Said F*** A Lot' -- because as sad as that sounds *that* was the real hook for Capaldi, and we needed the stories to get back to their adventure series roots and be less high-minded, preachy and faffy.
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I didn't watch the show like I said I wouldn't but apparently my Mother did!!! Now apart from the odd story in the show's fifty four years she has never liked it or even understood it! (Talons of Weng-Chiang not counted) but she told me on Thursday she had watched it and asked me if I had, to which I replied in the negative! Now let's not get ahead of ourselves here, because I know what you're thinking but no, she thought it was a load of rubbish! She likes Bradley Walsh from The Chase but says he's not really an actor and doesn't impress and the rest of it was banal! Now I'm so surprised that she actually would watch Doctor Who, because in the past I've tried to unleash my mania about the show upon her and she has as little interest in it as a mouse with a piece of cheese!!! she only likes Detective films and shows and anything else especially sci-fi which she has always told me is just silly as she hates monsters and with the exception of JAWS would be a waste of her time watching! Now I get the feeling she's not going to watch the second episode or the third so for once in half a century I'm in total agreement with my old Mum on Doctor Who! Never thought I'd ever say that! I still love the old ones though! :mrgreen:
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Also the following be added from the big screen universe, Scarlett Johansson, Emma Watson, Daisy Ridley, Jenniifer Lawrence, and more, all of who have had a higher screen exposure world-wide than Doctor Who's Jodie Whittaker will have.
Yes exactly, there's so many you loose track of them all. Also if we are talking about having a woman as a role model in general there's literally countless.

What about famous scientists, writers, or singers? Is Jodie saying that men have NEVER cited women as their role models before her? What about Tim Curry idolizing Billie Hoaliday? What about Freddie Mercury loving Aretha Franklin? What about all the male singers Amy Winehouse inspired? Bruno Mars, Sam Smith, even Tom Jones to some extent who said that his comeback album in 2008 was inspired by Amy.

She's such an arrogant and ignorant woman.
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I saw this whilst browsing on Tumblr and I think that this post sums up the general consensus on here, which I found interesting:
A person on Tumblr wrote: Am I rewatching the new Doctor Who ep for the third time today? PERHAPS.

But one of the things that stands out to me so much about this episode is that it washes away a lot of the things that made me frustrated about the Moffat era.

The plot MAKES SENSE. I feel like I could use this ep to introduce anyone to Doctor Who and it would make sense. It’s not concerned with being THE MOST “CLEVER” THING ON TV. It’s not concerned with twists and turns and surprises that aren’t earned just to prove how clever the writers are.
It’s fun. It’s legitimately fun.
The new companions? There doesn’t seem to be a big mystery about them (*cough*Clara*cough*River*cough*) They seem like normal people who were just in the right/wrong place at the right/wrong time. GIVE ME MORE OF ANYONE CAN BE HEROIC INSTEAD OF ONLY THE *SPECIAL* TRAVEL WITH THE DOCTOR. Let me see myself in them cause I’m not special, but I bet I could be if I got to travel with her.
Showing that the Doctor is brilliant and clever and quick instead of just telling and telling and telling me.
All the companions get to use their knowledge to help the Doctor. And it’s not magic knowledge, it’s things like bus drivers and police work and social media.
The Doctor never pulls a ‘no I have to go alone’ bullsh*t – everyone’s like ‘how do we help?’ and she’s all ‘C’MON FAM WE’RE GOING TO FIX THIS TOGETHER’.

I just really like this season already, okay?
The Doctor died with Capaldi. The Chibnall era is non-canon.

There are no Doctors before William Hartnell.

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I enjoyed it because it felt like it was written for someone who isn't a complete simpleton. I felt insulted by much of the last 13 years, the odd episode or scene apart, and it was refreshing to watch something that was just a fairly decent drama.

I could have done without all the "realism" in some ways as it felt like they were trying to hit too many targets in the race to be inclusive. They should relax a bit more.

I'm actually looking forward to tomorrow's episode and I haven't looked forward to seeing an episode of NuWho since Capaldi got the gig. I just hope my enjoyment of the series lasts longer than with Capaldi, who was submerged in the need to make him yet another Tennant/Smith by the mid point of his first series.

Jodie is already too much like Tennant, but I hope she's allowed to be more straight (in the acting sense) as we go along. I thought Capaldi nailed it in his early episodes, harking back to the alien and less of the cocky arsehole of Tennant/Smith.
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Bowtiesarecool wrote:I saw this whilst browsing on Tumblr and I think that this post sums up the general consensus on here, which I found interesting:
A person on Tumblr wrote: Am I rewatching the new Doctor Who ep for the third time today? PERHAPS.

But one of the things that stands out to me so much about this episode is that it washes away a lot of the things that made me frustrated about the Moffat era.

The plot MAKES SENSE. I feel like I could use this ep to introduce anyone to Doctor Who and it would make sense. It’s not concerned with being THE MOST “CLEVER” THING ON TV. It’s not concerned with twists and turns and surprises that aren’t earned just to prove how clever the writers are.
It’s fun. It’s legitimately fun.
The new companions? There doesn’t seem to be a big mystery about them (*cough*Clara*cough*River*cough*) They seem like normal people who were just in the right/wrong place at the right/wrong time. GIVE ME MORE OF ANYONE CAN BE HEROIC INSTEAD OF ONLY THE *SPECIAL* TRAVEL WITH THE DOCTOR. Let me see myself in them cause I’m not special, but I bet I could be if I got to travel with her.
Showing that the Doctor is brilliant and clever and quick instead of just telling and telling and telling me.
All the companions get to use their knowledge to help the Doctor. And it’s not magic knowledge, it’s things like bus drivers and police work and social media.
The Doctor never pulls a ‘no I have to go alone’ bullshine – everyone’s like ‘how do we help?’ and she’s all ‘C’MON FAM WE’RE GOING TO FIX THIS TOGETHER’.

I just really like this season already, okay?
Yup, exactly how I feel.
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Nah, it was a childish story and script performed by substandard actors.
The plusses were the music and not having to navigate Moffat's incessant quipping.
Moffat had some wonderful ideas which just seemed to come naturally to him but, probably because it felt more challenging, he would not let the "comedy" lie.
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robbo13 wrote:They should have taken the advice of Barbara Broccoli when asked about a female James Bond, if they want a female character like that then create one and make a film about her but James Bond will always be a man.
The problem is more to do with marketing than anything else, I suspect. Who is such a huge name worldwide that it gets lots of attention, will instantly be recognised by almost anyone, sell a ton of merch, etc. A new series "Romana" would have to gain all that recognition largely off its own bat. DW is the Beeb's flagship show, or one of them, and as such if they think "it's about time" for a female lead then they have to do it this way, as far as I can see. Maybe they could have done something clever and science fictional, and split the Doctor into male and female halves, or introduced the Doctor's equivalent from a parallel universe (who happens to be female), or ... something!

Actually one of those SF-y things would have perhaps gone down better with us old school fans, too. I like the parallel universe one. As Arnold Rimmer has his Ace, so the Doctor has his, er, Doctor. :roll:
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Rob Ocelot wrote:We've seen three on-screen 'regenderations' and two of them have involved Time Lords who have gone beyond their regular regeneration cycle so there's some wiggle room for in-continuity explanations for why it didn't happen the last 13 times. Both the Doctor and the Master have been variously described as somewhat unusual as far as Time Lords go -- the Doctor has a natural gift of excessive artron energy and the Master is a melting pot of life extension schemes and gambits. Both have used a chameleon arch to pass as humans so there's a huge precedent set for both individuals to have more flux in their genetics than most other Time Lords. It's my hope that Chibnall being a classic Doctor Who fan will incorporate an explanation for the gender change that satisfies the show's (admittedly loose) canon giving both old and new fans something to tune into. That, to my tastes would be more satisfying than the showrunners simply (and lazily) saying "This is how it always was and how it's going to be. Deal with it."
While I was glad The Woman Who Fell To Earth did not address the reasons for the Doctor becoming female and concentrated on the Doctor as a hero who can get out of tricky situations without any gender references (apart from one which was mercifully brief), it seems that there will be a need for this to be addressed at some point during the series, perhaps along the lines you suggest. The key will be in getting these kinds of explanations out of the way quickly and unobtrusively and then moving swiftly on to the action of the moment; at least, I hope this is the way the series will go.
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Rob Ocelot wrote:'regenderations'
:lol: Brilliant! Wish I'd thought of that!
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Rob Ocelot wrote:I have two things to add to the discussion:

1) (snip) .. It's my hope that Chibnall being a classic Doctor Who fan will incorporate an explanation for the gender change that satisfies the show's (admittedly loose) canon giving both old and new fans something to tune into. That, to my tastes would be more satisfying than the showrunners simply (and lazily) saying "This is how it always was and how it's going to be. Deal with it."

2) (snip) ...I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that NuWho was starting down the same road the show was going in the 1980s that got it axed the first time. The past few series had become quite samey in their sameiness. Capaldi was as about a tradiational Doctor as you could get and combined with the rash of uninspiring scripts it's no wonder the show got to the point where it had to radically change or be shelved for a few years to a decade. We were changing Doctors every couple of years, just like the 1980s too. Well, two things needed to happen... we needed a casting choice that would bring a fresh perspective to the show and not something as trite as 'The New Guy Who Once Played A Character Who Said F*** A Lot' -- because as sad as that sounds *that* was the real hook for Capaldi, and we needed the stories to get back to their adventure series roots and be less high-minded, preachy and faffy.
I cut out most of that just so as to keep things short while I hope reminding people of what you said.

Some great points! I would add to the list of revisions that they originally killed off the show's most memorable aliens, without which it almost certainly wouldn't have lasted 50+ years, then brought them back with a bit of hand waving and carried on their merry way. (In fact they killed them off twice!)

I so hope you're right about Chibnall getting back to the show's roots. Those roots being adventure first, messages second.
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A possible solution - and VERY topical

The Doctor's regeneration has a surprise twist - now it's a TRANSGENDER Doctor....and the regeneration effectively keeps crossing gender - one week she's female, next crosses back to male

plus one week He identifies as a woman (Pertwee hinted at this long ago donning cleaning lady gear)

next week she identifies as a man

other weeks she's our girl !

other weeks He's our chap !

we never know from week to week just WHO will be The Doctor - hence DOCTOR WHO ???

cast a chap to partner Jodie alternating as lead each week - in the interests of EQUALITY (hear hear) of course

in a multi Doctor story BOTH appear....like The Avengers

all problems solved :D

if you don't accept this....maybe you have 'issues' ? :? :? :?
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Bowtiesarecool wrote:I saw this whilst browsing on Tumblr and I think that this post sums up the general consensus on here, which I found interesting:
A person on Tumblr wrote: Am I rewatching the new Doctor Who ep for the third time today? PERHAPS.

But one of the things that stands out to me so much about this episode is that it washes away a lot of the things that made me frustrated about the Moffat era.

The plot MAKES SENSE. I feel like I could use this ep to introduce anyone to Doctor Who and it would make sense. It’s not concerned with being THE MOST “CLEVER” THING ON TV. It’s not concerned with twists and turns and surprises that aren’t earned just to prove how clever the writers are.
It’s fun. It’s legitimately fun.
The new companions? There doesn’t seem to be a big mystery about them (*cough*Clara*cough*River*cough*) They seem like normal people who were just in the right/wrong place at the right/wrong time. GIVE ME MORE OF ANYONE CAN BE HEROIC INSTEAD OF ONLY THE *SPECIAL* TRAVEL WITH THE DOCTOR. Let me see myself in them cause I’m not special, but I bet I could be if I got to travel with her.
Showing that the Doctor is brilliant and clever and quick instead of just telling and telling and telling me.
All the companions get to use their knowledge to help the Doctor. And it’s not magic knowledge, it’s things like bus drivers and police work and social media.
The Doctor never pulls a ‘no I have to go alone’ bullshine – everyone’s like ‘how do we help?’ and she’s all ‘C’MON FAM WE’RE GOING TO FIX THIS TOGETHER’.

I just really like this season already, okay?
Have to agree, this is why it felt more like old Who than most of the stuff RTD and Moffat came out with.

I just hope they can keep it up.
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LizR wrote:
Bowtiesarecool wrote:I saw this whilst browsing on Tumblr and I think that this post sums up the general consensus on here, which I found interesting:
A person on Tumblr wrote: Am I rewatching the new Doctor Who ep for the third time today? PERHAPS.

But one of the things that stands out to me so much about this episode is that it washes away a lot of the things that made me frustrated about the Moffat era.

The plot MAKES SENSE. I feel like I could use this ep to introduce anyone to Doctor Who and it would make sense. It’s not concerned with being THE MOST “CLEVER” THING ON TV. It’s not concerned with twists and turns and surprises that aren’t earned just to prove how clever the writers are.
It’s fun. It’s legitimately fun.
The new companions? There doesn’t seem to be a big mystery about them (*cough*Clara*cough*River*cough*) They seem like normal people who were just in the right/wrong place at the right/wrong time. GIVE ME MORE OF ANYONE CAN BE HEROIC INSTEAD OF ONLY THE *SPECIAL* TRAVEL WITH THE DOCTOR. Let me see myself in them cause I’m not special, but I bet I could be if I got to travel with her.
Showing that the Doctor is brilliant and clever and quick instead of just telling and telling and telling me.
All the companions get to use their knowledge to help the Doctor. And it’s not magic knowledge, it’s things like bus drivers and police work and social media.
The Doctor never pulls a ‘no I have to go alone’ bullshine – everyone’s like ‘how do we help?’ and she’s all ‘C’MON FAM WE’RE GOING TO FIX THIS TOGETHER’.

I just really like this season already, okay?
Have to agree, this is why it felt more like old Who than most of the stuff RTD and Moffat came out with.

I just hope they can keep it up.
I found it quite interesting because a much younger demographic use Tumblr and it seems that they were as fed up with Moffat as some of us on here were.
The Doctor died with Capaldi. The Chibnall era is non-canon.

There are no Doctors before William Hartnell.

Without respect, we reject.

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Joseph wrote:
robbo13 wrote:They should have taken the advice of Barbara Broccoli when asked about a female James Bond, if they want a female character like that then create one and make a film about her but James Bond will always be a man.
That's the thing though I honestly 100 percent convinced that these people don't care one bit about female heroes. Look at the toxic feminist fans like Claudia Boleyn and Whovian Feminism who pushed for this the most. They NEVER watch female led shows. Seriously go look at their youtube videos and their blogs and you won't find a single comment or review of a female led series.

Look at all the articles that focused solely on rubbing it in and ridiculing the people who didn't like it when Jodie was announced.

Look at Jodie's comments about smashing a glass ceiling. What glass ceiling is she smashing! What a female lead? Xena, Buffy, Charmed, Once Upon A Time, Earth 2, Ghost Whisperer, Resident Evil film series, Alien film series, Star Trek Voyager, Charlies Angels, The Heroic Trio film series, A Chinese Ghost story film series, etc.

Is she saying these were all sh*t compared to her, and didn't make any impact on popular culture? Its funny growing up in the 90s if you'd made the Doctor into a woman, a lot of people I know would still have much rather watched Buffy!

So what glass ceiling is it she is breaking? Being the first woman to play a male character? What's special about that? Either she thinks playing a man is so much more important than playing a woman, because male heroes are apparently always better than women? Or she thinks its special to take a role away from men, and a role model away from little boys (and don't give me the sh*t of boys can still look up to women, as by that logic then why did we need to cast a woman as the Doctor anyway? Couldn't little girls have looked up to a man?)

Either way is that really something to celebrate? I'm sure Lucy Lawless, Dana Delorenzo, Sarah Michelle Gellar and Lana Parilla must hate her guts too. All created great female heroes, and all being short changed by Bubble from Ab Fab in the media going on about how she is finally giving women a chance to be the hero.
shes not playing a man though, she's playing a Time Lady...
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Bowtiesarecool wrote:I saw this whilst browsing on Tumblr and I think that this post sums up the general consensus on here, which I found interesting:
A person on Tumblr wrote: Am I rewatching the new Doctor Who ep for the third time today? PERHAPS.

But one of the things that stands out to me so much about this episode is that it washes away a lot of the things that made me frustrated about the Moffat era.

The plot MAKES SENSE. I feel like I could use this ep to introduce anyone to Doctor Who and it would make sense. It’s not concerned with being THE MOST “CLEVER” THING ON TV. It’s not concerned with twists and turns and surprises that aren’t earned just to prove how clever the writers are.
It’s fun. It’s legitimately fun.
The new companions? There doesn’t seem to be a big mystery about them (*cough*Clara*cough*River*cough*) They seem like normal people who were just in the right/wrong place at the right/wrong time. GIVE ME MORE OF ANYONE CAN BE HEROIC INSTEAD OF ONLY THE *SPECIAL* TRAVEL WITH THE DOCTOR. Let me see myself in them cause I’m not special, but I bet I could be if I got to travel with her.
Showing that the Doctor is brilliant and clever and quick instead of just telling and telling and telling me.
All the companions get to use their knowledge to help the Doctor. And it’s not magic knowledge, it’s things like bus drivers and police work and social media.
The Doctor never pulls a ‘no I have to go alone’ bullshine – everyone’s like ‘how do we help?’ and she’s all ‘C’MON FAM WE’RE GOING TO FIX THIS TOGETHER’.

I just really like this season already, okay?
I think this is a great critique, bravo
I saw 'The Purge, Election Year' last night, I couldn't make out whether it was fiction or a party political broadcast on behalf of the Republican party...
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watched it live and just had a second re-watch and although it's not as bad as i was dreading it was still poor.i don't really have a problem with a female doctor but Whitaker was poor and the rest of the cast were no better,the story felt like a Torchwood reject script,i've heard people compare the plot to a SJA episode but that series had better written scripts than this. I gave it a 4 because it looked nice (and as i've lived in Sheffield all my life it was nice to see some of my home town on screen :) ).I'm hoping Whitaker's acting improves and we get better story's and plots and not some boring Cliched rip offs of other genre shows
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I will probably watch it at some point
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A friend of mine had this to say:
I thought it was agenda driven. Had an Asian, black family, white female Doctor Who with a with middle age man who was an idiot – was the train driver white – I fell asleep in that bit! When I told Anne she said wasn’t there anyone disabled? I said yes there was, some who could not balance on a bike. The BBC ticks all their PC boxes and on that basis I’m out.

Just Googled Bill Potts – never seen her – Haven’t watched Dr Who for years. Rosa Parks episode? Give me a break. If I could cancel my TV licence I would.
That about sums up the "box ticking" side of things, I think.
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