Rate A Christmas Carol

Rate A Christmas Carol

10
92
23%
9
64
16%
8
70
18%
7
48
12%
6
40
10%
5
24
6%
4
19
5%
3
22
6%
2
8
2%
1
11
3%
 
Total votes: 398
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The Nimon
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LizR wrote:
The Nimon wrote:we came to the final conclusion that it's just a entertaining TV show so just forget about all these niggling little problems and just sit back and enjoy it. :D
Blasphemy!
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Calm down dear.. its only a TV show

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Having missed this over the festive season (due to compromise with other family members) I have just seen the repeat of 'A Christmas Carol' on BBC1 now.
Having only seen the first few stories of Smith's last season (as I do not warm to him AT ALL in the part) I was just keen to see how the familiar Dicken's story was shaped into a Doctor Who tale.
The beginning was ok, with the excellent Gambon strutting around, giving out his orders to the (I assumed) equivalent of quivering Cratchitts, pleasding the release of their cryogenically frozen family member.
I won't go on but as soon as Smith ridiculously leaps out of the chimney, with a quip for every occasion, my patience deserted me and I lost interest!!
I did see it through to the end though - just through yawns and fidgets.
Nice to hear 'Isomorphic' mentioned again a la Pyramids of Mars and the setting was quaint but honestly - Is Smith incapable of acting the correct emotion for the correct scene? He darts around like an ADHD suffering child on whizz and spouts rubbish like "Big, flashy, lighty thing" !! The Doctor as played by him (IMO) is like some kind of God, totally omnipotent and should he neglect to ascertain what everyone is thinking at that moment, his screwdriver is there for the now routine deus-ex-mchina.

I'm sorry folks, I didn't like it. The programme now is SO different; If the TARDIS were not visible I wouldn't know what I was watching!!
What the hell was that impromptu acapella gig by the woman from Bejams all about?? Where did her accompaniment swell from? How did the crowd manage to harmonize perfecly without a single rehearsal?

Roll on Meglos and The Mutants!!!!! (then The Ark!!!)
"..and who knows when it will end..."
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tony ingram
 
 
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If the TARDIS were not visible, someone who started watching in 1963 wouldn't have recognized the show in 1970. It changes all the time.
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I don't agree with that at all - I recall Jon Pertwee even used to 'Test the Atmosphere' - 'Standard Proceedure Jo' - just like William Hartnell originally did !

Pertwee asked Sgt Benton if he was gonna ask how the Tardis was 'bigger on the inside'....'everyone else does !'
in 'The Three Doctors' in 1973....the very question Ian Chesterton asked in the first episode back 1963...!

While The (original & basic ) sonic screwdriver, The Brigadier, & UNIT all first appeared in Patrick Troughton sixties stories too !

the 1963-1989 series had an overall theme of basic continuity & 'Spirit' running right through it that was lost thereafter....

they might as well rename the fantasy thing now....'Omni God, fish fingers & custard ' or something...!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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tony ingram wrote:If the TARDIS were not visible, someone who started watching in 1963 wouldn't have recognized the show in 1970. It changes all the time.
Not to that extent. In the 26 years of the classic run, never did it alter so much from its original premise. This is not a question of the actor being different - the whole style and structure of the programme is at odds with what it always was (IMO).
"..and who knows when it will end..."
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Kamelion wrote:
tony ingram wrote:If the TARDIS were not visible, someone who started watching in 1963 wouldn't have recognized the show in 1970. It changes all the time.
Not to that extent. In the 26 years of the classic run, never did it alter so much from its original premise. This is not a question of the actor being different - the whole style and structure of the programme is at odds with what it always was (IMO).
The whole style and structure of the programme was completely different by 1970 to what it had been in the sixties-even Carole Ann Ford has said that it became a completely different show. By 1971, it had changed again. By 1982, it was different again, likewise in 1987 and again in 1996. The only reason it looks so drastically different now is because before, it was a continuing series and we were changing with it, whereas when it was revived in 2005 there was a yawning chasm between old and new, and the only reason it seems noticeably different again this year is because for five years we had one individual in overall charge and he basically stamped his own personality on it. Doctor Who has always changed. This is no different. To me, it now feels far more like the Who I used to love than the last five years have. And the original premise is exactly the same and always has been: it's about a bloke flying through time and space in a phone box.
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tony ingram wrote:
Kamelion wrote:
tony ingram wrote:If the TARDIS were not visible, someone who started watching in 1963 wouldn't have recognized the show in 1970. It changes all the time.
Not to that extent. In the 26 years of the classic run, never did it alter so much from its original premise. This is not a question of the actor being different - the whole style and structure of the programme is at odds with what it always was (IMO).
The whole style and structure of the programme was completely different by 1970 to what it had been in the sixties-even Carole Ann Ford has said that it became a completely different show. By 1971, it had changed again. By 1982, it was different again, likewise in 1987 and again in 1996. The only reason it looks so drastically different now is because before, it was a continuing series and we were changing with it, whereas when it was revived in 2005 there was a yawning chasm between old and new, and the only reason it seems noticeably different again this year is because for five years we had one individual in overall charge and he basically stamped his own personality on it. Doctor Who has always changed. This is no different. To me, it now feels far more like the Who I used to love than the last five years have. And the original premise is exactly the same and always has been: it's about a bloke flying through time and space in a phone box.

I think that the change between the diffrent eras of the show in the past wasn't really noticed all that much, well up until the 80s, was the fact that people didn't have video recordings of all the shows. The Hartnel years are miles apart from say the McCoy years, lets remember when the show started it was supposed to be edicational as well. Tony is right though, the basic premise of the show has always remained the same. Mysterious bloke called the Doctor traveling through time and space in a police box with a pretty young girl, it was a bit hard getting that bit when Cathrine tate was in it i must admit, and getting in trouble
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tony ingram wrote:The whole style and structure of the programme was completely different by 1970 to what it had been in the sixties-even Carole Ann Ford has said that it became a completely different show. By 1971, it had changed again. By 1982, it was different again, likewise in 1987 and again in 1996. The only reason it looks so drastically different now is because before, it was a continuing series and we were changing with it, whereas when it was revived in 2005 there was a yawning chasm between old and new, and the only reason it seems noticeably different again this year is because for five years we had one individual in overall charge and he basically stamped his own personality on it. Doctor Who has always changed. This is no different. To me, it now feels far more like the Who I used to love than the last five years have. And the original premise is exactly the same and always has been: it's about a bloke flying through time and space in a phone box.
I'm sorry but I do not agree AT ALL with what you have said. The series now has lost its eccentricity, its charm and its very soul. Now it just pales in with other serials like Primeval, Misfits and the like.
Obviously such change was neccesary to ensure its survival when it was brought back (this is just my summation) but, in doing so, I feel it has lost the very magic that granted it this longevity.

You mention the differences between 1963 and 1970 - nothing I can see except for the onset of colour television and the Doctor's exile. Any long term viewer would know precisely why he was stranded on Earth from the get go. Then you say 1982. What happened there? A new theme tune and a neon tube logo? These are just baubles that add to the magic but do not shape the show itself. The stories where generally constructed in much the same way as they always had been and the Doctor always right. 1987? Yes, another theme tune and title arrangement and a ludicrous season 24 but by Remembrance part one, we were back on track.
Maybe I am just so unenthalled with Matt Smith that it is clouding all else - but I don't think so. The stories are all wrapped up in one forty five minute episode!!!!! (well most of them) The premise HAS changed. It was supposed to be an exciting, educational romp through time and space - not an arrogant leap into someone's time line, brandish the screwdriver and leave!!!
It is very generic now, the Doctor could be any hero - as I said originally, if it wasn't for the TARDIS....
"..and who knows when it will end..."
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I think your personal opinions are clouding your judgment. I've been watching since the early seventies, and to me, the current iteration of the show is the same Doctor Who I grew up with. It's changed a bit to fit modern sensibilities, that's all. I'm sorry you can't see that.
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tony ingram wrote:I think your personal opinions are clouding your judgment. I've been watching since the early seventies, and to me, the current iteration of the show is the same Doctor Who I grew up with. It's changed a bit to fit modern sensibilities, that's all. I'm sorry you can't see that.
You could very well be right!
I try to love the show lately and adored David Tennants tenure, I promise I don't feel the need to be scathing for no reason!! If loved it I would say so.
Oh well, variety is the spice and all that.....
"..and who knows when it will end..."
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The Xmas Specials progress from Wacaday to Disney Time
"Scriptwriters are confident they'll make a huge impact. Everyone remembers the Daleks and the Cyberman, but not a lot else if they're honest. The Tritovore will change that. They will last long in the memory" - New Who PR, 2009
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The Nimon wrote:Calm down dear.. its only a TV show
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LizR wrote:
The Nimon wrote:Calm down dear.. its only a TV show
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LizR wrote:
The Nimon wrote:Calm down dear.. its only a TV show
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tony ingram wrote:I think your personal opinions are clouding your judgment. I've been watching since the early seventies, and to me, the current iteration of the show is the same Doctor Who I grew up with. It's changed a bit to fit modern sensibilities, that's all. I'm sorry you can't see that.
The things that Kamelion mentioned included, iirc, a godlike Doctor and a deus-ex-machine ending - both things I object to, both in RTD and Moffat's writing, because they are signs of bad writing, bad drama, bad story construction, etc. If Kamelion is yawning his way through it, the show has failed to grip him - and that's down to bad writing, rather than "neutral changes" (so to speak) to the format.

Personally I yawned my way through "The Ambassadors of Death" so I agree this is nothing new. But the point is to improve the stories, whatever the format.
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The Nimon wrote:Mysterious bloke called the Doctor traveling through time and space in a police box with a pretty young girl
I don't recall that being the premise. "Mysterious bloke travelling thru time & space in a police box with a variety of companions", yes. It's only recently that there has been this insistence that it has to be (almost) exclusively un homme et une femme. Well, "recently" being since the TVM, I guess. Or maybe since Ace - I'm a bit vague on 80s Who.
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alvin wrote:the 1963-1989 series had an overall theme of basic continuity & 'Spirit' running right through it that was lost thereafter....

they might as well rename the fantasy thing now....'Omni God, fish fingers & custard ' or something...!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
"Doctor Whatever" :roll:
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I don't know where the idea the 'show had changed completely by 1970' comes from....it's simply not true is it ?

Continuity wise:
The Third Doctor was exiled to earth....as a result of the second Doctor's own actions in calling on the Timelords for help ('The War Games').....and duly then standing Trial by his own race for the actions of the FIRST Doctor in 'Borrowing a Tardis & doing a Runner, then interfering in other worlds etc...'....yes ?

Pertwee's Doc was first even seen wearing Troughton's clothes....while The Brigadier & UNIT even Sgt.Benton we knew from an earlier Troughton story....

The Pertwee Doctor helping earth's authorities during his exile....in exchange for equipment & facilities to help him try to Repair The Tardis & get going again (Pert's Doc is DETERMINED to outwit his own race and Time & Space travel again asap...even attempting to do another 'runner' in 'Spearhead From Space')

....was precisely what we would expect the Doctor to do....we know his basic character of old...and from 'testing the atmosphere'...to 'not liking Goodbyes'....Pertwee's Doctor (& the later ones too) remains constant to his two predecessors in basic overall character....as does the programme itself...

Pat Troughton's Second Doctor had several times helped the Earth authorities ('the Faceless Ones', 'The Web of Fear', 'The Cybermen Invasion' etc)....as had William Hartnell's original Doctor earlier ('The War Machines' 1966 - indeed that 'present day Earth' adventure might well have led to UNIT's later formation ? - plus 'Dalek Master Plan' re Bret Vyron's mission & the message left in 'Mission To The Unknown')

Later Tom Baker ('Robot', 'Zygons', 'Seeds of Doom'), Peter Davison ( 'Timeflight', 'Earthshock', 'Resurrection of The Daleks,)), Colin Baker ('Twin Dilemma', Attack of The Cybermen'), Sylvester McCoy ('Remembrance of The Daleks', 'Battlefield).....each helped either the Earth or future Earth based Space Authorities in their work...just as Pertwee was doing during his Earth exile period...

Pert's Third Doctor 'accidently' took Sarah Jane Smith off with him ('Time Warrior')...just as William Hartnell's First Doctor had Barbara & Ian....Steven Taylor...Polly & Ben - yes ?

Tom Baker's Fourth Doctor did likewise re Leela ....and Adric & Tegan...

Adric stowed away in the Tardis ....just as Zoe had earlier attempted to do too

Nyssa was taken by a ghostly manifestation of The Doctor ('The watcher')....saving her from Traken's destruction....much like Victoria was taken after her farther's death on Skaro ('Evil of The Daleks') ....and earlier Vicki was similarly befriended and taken aboard the Tardis ('The Rescue')

Consider this:
In 'The Time Meddler' (1965) the First Doctor intervenes to prevent a renegade Timelord ('The Meddling Monk') from using futuristic technology to pervert the course of Earth's established history (re the Viking invasion)....and duly 'nobbles' the renegade Timelord's Tardis at the end...

In 'The King's Demons' (1983) The Fifth Doctor intervenes to prevent a renegade Timelord ('The Master') from using futuristic technology ('Kamelion') to pervert the course of Earth's established history (the signing of Magna Carta) ....and duly 'nobbles' the renegade Timelord's Tardis at the end....

an EXTREMELY Different show.....NOT !

In 'The Daleks' (1963)....Terry Nation has a riverful of mutated creatures lurking.... which kills a Thal....

in 'Genesis of The Daleks' (1975) Terry Nation has a area of mutated creatures lurking...which kills a Thal

In 'Dalek Invasion of Earth' (1964) the Tardis is covered by falling masonery....barring access...

in 'Destiny of The Daleks' (1979) the Tardis is covered by falling Rocks....barring access...

in 'Dalek Invasion' Barbara & co are slaves working away.......in 'Genesis' Sarah Jane & co are slaves working away....in 'Destiny of' Romana & co are slaves working away....' (Both Sara Jane & Romana being Radiation poisoned....as Barbara was in the first Dalek story too...)

The Doctor & co getting STUCK:
in 'Tenth Planet' the Doctor & co are in a base under seige....in 'The Ice Warriors' The Doctor & co are in a base under seige....in' The Daemons' The Doctor & co are stuck in a village under seige...in 'Horror of Fang Rock' The Doctor & co are stuck in a lighthouse under seige...in 'Warriors of The Deep' The Doctor & co are in a base under seige...in 'Terror of The Vervoids' The Doctor & co are stuck on a space freighter under seige...in 'Battlefield' The Doctor & co are stuck in a village under seige by Knights...

that's really alot of change isn't it...? :shock:

I can think of umpteen other examples....the 1963-1989 Classic show had MUCH that was consistant....both story wise & overall series structure wise (and had a good few re-enactments in fact !)

so I for one just don't believe this 'the programme changed completely' line re the Classic series at all...!


A Changed completely Programme:
of course in 'NuWho'...we have 'Burping Wheelie bins....Farting Slitheens...Doctor birdie in a cage....gurning Master...Tardis powered by 'pumping it up & Dinging a bell plus hit with a hammer....all chant together 'Dok-Tor !'....MRI Scanners with imlpausible powers...Pig men...Rhino men....Cat men...flick a switch instant re-set endings...Tardis towing space liners about with 'Star Trek' tractor beams...Tardis speeding up the motorway...Big imposing speeches...to scared foes that never try to kill the Doctor.... 'imagine' happy endings....supposedly 'clever' paradoxes that in fact just don't make any sense on deeper thinking (A 'No No' these days !!) .....Fatleks....quite incorect adaptations of actual historical figures...fish fingers & custard...'sing flying sharks to sleep'....oh & chips !

How much of that was there in the original show ?
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tony ingram
 
 
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LizR wrote:
tony ingram wrote:I think your personal opinions are clouding your judgment. I've been watching since the early seventies, and to me, the current iteration of the show is the same Doctor Who I grew up with. It's changed a bit to fit modern sensibilities, that's all. I'm sorry you can't see that.
The things that Kamelion mentioned included, iirc, a godlike Doctor and a deus-ex-machine ending - both things I object to, both in RTD and Moffat's writing, because they are signs of bad writing, bad drama, bad story construction, etc. If Kamelion is yawning his way through it, the show has failed to grip him - and that's down to bad writing, rather than "neutral changes" (so to speak) to the format.

Personally I yawned my way through "The Ambassadors of Death" so I agree this is nothing new. But the point is to improve the stories, whatever the format.
Except that you can't say that it's down to bad writing if a lot of other people didn't yawn their way through it but actually enjoyed it-the show didn't fail to grip me, far from it, so how does the fact that it failed to grip Kamelion mean it's badly written? Similarly, I know many people who consider Ambassadors of Death to be gripping drama. So why would it need to be improved? It isn't about bad writing, it's about personal taste. Unless you believe that some people are fundamentally incapable of seeing bad writing because their tastes differ from yours?
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alvin wrote:I don't know where the idea the 'show had changed completely by 1970' comes from....it's simply not true is it ?

Continuity wise:
The Third Doctor was exiled to earth....as a result of the second Doctor's own actions in calling on the Timelords for help ('The War Games').....and duly then standing Trial by his own race for the actions of the FIRST Doctor in 'Borrowing a Tardis & doing a Runner, then interfering in other worlds etc...'....yes ?

Pertwee's Doc was first even seen wearing Troughton's clothes....while The Brigadier & UNIT even Sgt.Benton we knew from an earlier Troughton story....

The Pertwee Doctor helping earth's authorities during his exile....in exchange for equipment & facilities to help him try to Repair The Tardis & get going again (Pert's Doc is DETERMINED to outwit his own race and Time & Space travel again asap...even attempting to do another 'runner' in 'Spearhead From Space')

....was precisely what we would expect the Doctor to do....we know his basic character of old...and from 'testing the atmosphere'...to 'not liking Goodbyes'....Pertwee's Doctor (& the later ones too) remains constant to his two predecessors in basic overall character....as does the programme itself...

Pat Troughton's Second Doctor had several times helped the Earth authorities ('the Faceless Ones', 'The Web of Fear', 'The Cybermen Invasion' etc)....as had William Hartnell's original Doctor earlier ('The War Machines' 1966 - indeed that 'present day Earth' adventure might well have led to UNIT's later formation ? - plus 'Dalek Master Plan' re Bret Vyron's mission & the message left in 'Mission To The Unknown')

Later Tom Baker ('Robot', 'Zygons', 'Seeds of Doom'), Peter Davison ( 'Timeflight', 'Earthshock', 'Resurrection of The Daleks,)), Colin Baker ('Twin Dilemma', Attack of The Cybermen'), Sylvester McCoy ('Remembrance of The Daleks', 'Battlefield).....each helped either the Earth or future Earth based Space Authorities in their work...just as Pertwee was doing during his Earth exile period...

Pert's Third Doctor 'accidently' took Sarah Jane Smith off with him ('Time Warrior')...just as William Hartnell's First Doctor had Barbara & Ian....Steven Taylor...Polly & Ben - yes ?

Tom Baker's Fourth Doctor did likewise re Leela ....and Adric & Tegan...

Adric stowed away in the Tardis ....just as Zoe had earlier attempted to do too

Nyssa was taken by a ghostly manifestation of The Doctor ('The watcher')....saving her from Traken's destruction....much like Victoria was taken after her farther's death on Skaro ('Evil of The Daleks') ....and earlier Vicki was similarly befriended and taken aboard the Tardis ('The Rescue')

Consider this:
In 'The Time Meddler' (1965) the First Doctor intervenes to prevent a renegade Timelord ('The Meddling Monk') from using futuristic technology to pervert the course of Earth's established history (re the Viking invasion)....and duly 'nobbles' the renegade Timelord's Tardis at the end...

In 'The King's Demons' (1983) The Fifth Doctor intervenes to prevent a renegade Timelord ('The Master') from using futuristic technology ('Kamelion') to pervert the course of Earth's established history (the signing of Magna Carta) ....and duly 'nobbles' the renegade Timelord's Tardis at the end....

an EXTREMELY Different show.....NOT !

In 'The Daleks' (1963)....Terry Nation has a riverful of mutated creatures lurking.... which kills a Thal....

in 'Genesis of The Daleks' (1975) Terry Nation has a area of mutated creatures lurking...which kills a Thal

In 'Dalek Invasion of Earth' (1964) the Tardis is covered by falling masonery....barring access...

in 'Destiny of The Daleks' (1979) the Tardis is covered by falling Rocks....barring access...

in 'Dalek Invasion' Barbara & co are slaves working away.......in 'Genesis' Sarah Jane & co are slaves working away....in 'Destiny of' Romana & co are slaves working away....' (Both Sara Jane & Romana being Radiation poisoned....as Barbara was in the first Dalek story too...)

The Doctor & co getting STUCK:
in 'Tenth Planet' the Doctor & co are in a base under seige....in 'The Ice Warriors' The Doctor & co are in a base under seige....in' The Daemons' The Doctor & co are stuck in a village under seige...in 'Horror of Fang Rock' The Doctor & co are stuck in a lighthouse under seige...in 'Warriors of The Deep' The Doctor & co are in a base under seige...in 'Terror of The Vervoids' The Doctor & co are stuck on a space freighter under seige...in 'Battlefield' The Doctor & co are stuck in a village under seige by Knights...

that's really alot of change isn't it...? :shock:

I can think of umpteen other examples....the 1963-1989 Classic show had MUCH that was consistant....both story wise & overall series structure wise (and had a good few re-enactments in fact !)

so I for one just don't believe this 'the programme changed completely' line re the Classic series at all...!


A Changed completely Programme:
of course in 'NuWho'...we have 'Burping Wheelie bins....Farting Slitheens...Doctor birdie in a cage....gurning Master...Tardis powered by 'pumping it up & Dinging a bell plus hit with a hammer....all chant together 'Dok-Tor !'....MRI Scanners with imlpausible powers...Pig men...Rhino men....Cat men...flick a switch instant re-set endings...Tardis towing space liners about with 'Star Trek' tractor beams...Tardis speeding up the motorway...Big imposing speeches...to scared foes that never try to kill the Doctor.... 'imagine' happy endings....supposedly 'clever' paradoxes that in fact just don't make any sense on deeper thinking (A 'No No' these days !!) .....Fatleks....quite incorect adaptations of actual historical figures...fish fingers & custard...'sing flying sharks to sleep'....oh & chips !

How much of that was there in the original show ?
Bravo sir!!!
"..and who knows when it will end..."
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