Rate A Christmas Carol

Rate A Christmas Carol

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6
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24
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Total votes: 398
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ianj
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The only things the same between the original series and the new series are the tardis exterior, tardis noise, the character of the Doctor, (who now appears to be 1/2 human) and the sonic screwdriver. Everything else is changed, different. I do watch the new series ones,and matt Smith has a lovely "other-Worldliness about him) but Im not bothered by them; I wont be watching them in the future, whereas I will the original series----my heart lies with the proper series, the 1963-1989 era ( though , again, the later ones arent my cup of tea)
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ianj wrote:The only things the same between the original series and the new series are the tardis exterior, tardis noise, the character of the Doctor, (who now appears to be 1/2 human) and the sonic screwdriver.
You could say that about virtually any previous era.
Everything else is changed, different. I do watch the new series ones,and matt Smith has a lovely "other-Worldliness about him) but Im not bothered by them; I wont be watching them in the future, whereas I will the original series----my heart lies with the proper series, the 1963-1989 era ( though , again, the later ones arent my cup of tea)
So basically, your heart lies with only the bits you happen to like.
This is still 'the proper seriees'.
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No, its not-its the new series. Of course I prefer the original series-thats where my heart lies-yours lies with the overall programme.
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ianj wrote:yours lies with the overall programme.
I'm not sure what Acorn Antiques has to do with anything... :?
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ianj wrote:No, its not-its the new series. Of course I prefer the original series-thats where my heart lies-yours lies with the overall programme.
Where did this tendency to call the pre-2005 series 'classic' and post-2005 series 'new' originate? Did it come from the programme-makers, the BBC, the fans or a bit of all three? I'm guilty of using this terminology myself and the only thing it seems to do is give people who dislike the style and tone of the new series an excuse to say 'it's not as good as the classic series, is it?'.

If the programme hadn't been cancelled in 1989 and had enjoyed a continuous run to this day this issue wouldn't exist at all because no-one would be able to make a distinction between the old series and the new. The programme would have continued and changed over the years, just as it's always done, and simply been more Doctor Who.

Unfortunately there was a gap of sixteen years between the original TV run and this one, broken only by the TVM in '96, so rather than gradually changing with the times the programme hit our screens with a contemporary feel and some old schoolers have duly had a culture shock. How television drama is made has changed in the intervening years; it would be ridiculous to make the programme now as they did in the sixties, much as I love that era of Doctor Who the audience would be nodding off.
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alvin wrote:I don't know where the idea the 'show had changed completely by 1970' comes from....it's simply not true is it ?

Continuity wise:
The Third Doctor was exiled to earth....as a result of the second Doctor's own actions in calling on the Timelords for help ('The War Games').....and duly then standing Trial by his own race for the actions of the FIRST Doctor in 'Borrowing a Tardis & doing a Runner, then interfering in other worlds etc...'....yes ?

Pertwee's Doc was first even seen wearing Troughton's clothes....while The Brigadier & UNIT even Sgt.Benton we knew from an earlier Troughton story....

The Pertwee Doctor helping earth's authorities during his exile....in exchange for equipment & facilities to help him try to Repair The Tardis & get going again (Pert's Doc is DETERMINED to outwit his own race and Time & Space travel again asap...even attempting to do another 'runner' in 'Spearhead From Space')

....was precisely what we would expect the Doctor to do....we know his basic character of old...and from 'testing the atmosphere'...to 'not liking Goodbyes'....Pertwee's Doctor (& the later ones too) remains constant to his two predecessors in basic overall character....as does the programme itself...

Pat Troughton's Second Doctor had several times helped the Earth authorities ('the Faceless Ones', 'The Web of Fear', 'The Cybermen Invasion' etc)....as had William Hartnell's original Doctor earlier ('The War Machines' 1966 - indeed that 'present day Earth' adventure might well have led to UNIT's later formation ? - plus 'Dalek Master Plan' re Bret Vyron's mission & the message left in 'Mission To The Unknown')

Later Tom Baker ('Robot', 'Zygons', 'Seeds of Doom'), Peter Davison ( 'Timeflight', 'Earthshock', 'Resurrection of The Daleks,)), Colin Baker ('Twin Dilemma', Attack of The Cybermen'), Sylvester McCoy ('Remembrance of The Daleks', 'Battlefield).....each helped either the Earth or future Earth based Space Authorities in their work...just as Pertwee was doing during his Earth exile period...

Pert's Third Doctor 'accidently' took Sarah Jane Smith off with him ('Time Warrior')...just as William Hartnell's First Doctor had Barbara & Ian....Steven Taylor...Polly & Ben - yes ?

Tom Baker's Fourth Doctor did likewise re Leela ....and Adric & Tegan...

Adric stowed away in the Tardis ....just as Zoe had earlier attempted to do too

Nyssa was taken by a ghostly manifestation of The Doctor ('The watcher')....saving her from Traken's destruction....much like Victoria was taken after her farther's death on Skaro ('Evil of The Daleks') ....and earlier Vicki was similarly befriended and taken aboard the Tardis ('The Rescue')

Consider this:
In 'The Time Meddler' (1965) the First Doctor intervenes to prevent a renegade Timelord ('The Meddling Monk') from using futuristic technology to pervert the course of Earth's established history (re the Viking invasion)....and duly 'nobbles' the renegade Timelord's Tardis at the end...

In 'The King's Demons' (1983) The Fifth Doctor intervenes to prevent a renegade Timelord ('The Master') from using futuristic technology ('Kamelion') to pervert the course of Earth's established history (the signing of Magna Carta) ....and duly 'nobbles' the renegade Timelord's Tardis at the end....

an EXTREMELY Different show.....NOT !

In 'The Daleks' (1963)....Terry Nation has a riverful of mutated creatures lurking.... which kills a Thal....

in 'Genesis of The Daleks' (1975) Terry Nation has a area of mutated creatures lurking...which kills a Thal

In 'Dalek Invasion of Earth' (1964) the Tardis is covered by falling masonery....barring access...

in 'Destiny of The Daleks' (1979) the Tardis is covered by falling Rocks....barring access...

in 'Dalek Invasion' Barbara & co are slaves working away.......in 'Genesis' Sarah Jane & co are slaves working away....in 'Destiny of' Romana & co are slaves working away....' (Both Sara Jane & Romana being Radiation poisoned....as Barbara was in the first Dalek story too...)

The Doctor & co getting STUCK:
in 'Tenth Planet' the Doctor & co are in a base under seige....in 'The Ice Warriors' The Doctor & co are in a base under seige....in' The Daemons' The Doctor & co are stuck in a village under seige...in 'Horror of Fang Rock' The Doctor & co are stuck in a lighthouse under seige...in 'Warriors of The Deep' The Doctor & co are in a base under seige...in 'Terror of The Vervoids' The Doctor & co are stuck on a space freighter under seige...in 'Battlefield' The Doctor & co are stuck in a village under seige by Knights...

that's really alot of change isn't it...? :shock:

I can think of umpteen other examples....the 1963-1989 Classic show had MUCH that was consistant....both story wise & overall series structure wise (and had a good few re-enactments in fact !)

so I for one just don't believe this 'the programme changed completely' line re the Classic series at all...!


A Changed completely Programme:
of course in 'NuWho'...we have 'Burping Wheelie bins....Farting Slitheens...Doctor birdie in a cage....gurning Master...Tardis powered by 'pumping it up & Dinging a bell plus hit with a hammer....all chant together 'Dok-Tor !'....MRI Scanners with imlpausible powers...Pig men...Rhino men....Cat men...flick a switch instant re-set endings...Tardis towing space liners about with 'Star Trek' tractor beams...Tardis speeding up the motorway...Big imposing speeches...to scared foes that never try to kill the Doctor.... 'imagine' happy endings....supposedly 'clever' paradoxes that in fact just don't make any sense on deeper thinking (A 'No No' these days !!) .....Fatleks....quite incorect adaptations of actual historical figures...fish fingers & custard...'sing flying sharks to sleep'....oh & chips !

How much of that was there in the original show ?

Ok, so you've mananged to prove that the original series has reused the same ideas over and over again, that still isn't proof that the series didn't change during the diffrent eras. As Terrance Dicks has said 5 times before on the dvds 'Terry Nation wrote us a dalek story and Barry said to him, it's very good Terry but you've sold us that idea five times before'. Each era of the show has a diffrent look and feel, you can't say that the Hartnel stories look and fell the same as the Hintchcliff stuff, just as the JNT era doesn't look like that either. Are you telling me that a story such as Planet of giants has the same look and feel as something like Pyramids of mars? for a start Pyramids feels more adult and has far more horror, Ambassadors of Death is diffrent to these as well as is any 80s story.

By your same argument i could say that the new series is the same as the classic continuity wise by saying:

The Autons came out of windows to attack people in Spearhead from Space, they also did that in Rose
A Dalek Flew up some stairs in remmeberence of the Daleks, A Dalek did that in Dalek
Gurning Master... any story with the brilliant Anthony Ainley in
The Doctor has the sonic screwdriver
The Doctor met past Doctors in the Three, Five and Two Doctors, The Doctor also met a past Doctor in Time Crash
Cat men... Cat women in Survival
Tardis powered by 'pumping it up & Dinging a bell plus hit with a hammer... Serveral Doctors would thump the console in the original series... Plus it made a silly noise in Horns of Nimon
Big imposing speeches... Watch any Robert Holmes story, loads of long speeches in them
Fatleks... Special weopons Dalek and the Roll on mum emporer in Rememberance
quite incorect adaptations of actual historical figures... TimeLash with HG Wells. George Stephenson in Mark of the Rani
Doctor birdie in a cage... a small master in a box in Planet of fire
Farting Slitheens... a monster that look a bit like a willy in Creature from the pit
Both the 10th and 11th Doctors wearing the past Doctors clothes, plus the use of the wardrobe room by the 10th Doctor and the 11th Doctor stealing his clothes from a hospital
The Doctor Helping Unit
Sarah jane smith
K9
The Brigidier
Jo Grant
The many returning monsters
I could go on...

I'll give you some of the stupid RTD stuff though but on the whole, and by the same rules of your own argument, it looks rather the same as the classic series to me
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tony ingram wrote:Except that you can't say that it's down to bad writing if a lot of other people didn't yawn their way through it but actually enjoyed it-the show didn't fail to grip me, far from it, so how does the fact that it failed to grip Kamelion mean it's badly written? Similarly, I know many people who consider Ambassadors of Death to be gripping drama. So why would it need to be improved? It isn't about bad writing, it's about personal taste.
Hmm, you have a point. There are always people who aren't gripped by something, regardless of the quality of the writing. I withdraw whatever it was I said earlier....next up....is new Who fundamentally different from old Who?
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LizR wrote:
tony ingram wrote:Except that you can't say that it's down to bad writing if a lot of other people didn't yawn their way through it but actually enjoyed it-the show didn't fail to grip me, far from it, so how does the fact that it failed to grip Kamelion mean it's badly written? Similarly, I know many people who consider Ambassadors of Death to be gripping drama. So why would it need to be improved? It isn't about bad writing, it's about personal taste.
Hmm, you have a point. There are always people who aren't gripped by something, regardless of the quality of the writing. I withdraw whatever it was I said earlier....next up....is new Who fundamentally different from old Who?
No. It's stylistically different than old Who, in the same way that pretty much every show on TV nowadays is stylistically different than it used to be. TV drama now tends to be more naturalistic and to try to target specific areas of the perceived audience. So, to an extent, does comedy. Modern TV also tends to be faster paced as the execs think the audience have the attention spans of goldfish. If Who had remained in continuous production, that change would have been a gradual thing and we wouldn't even be having this discussion-it's only the fact that it was off air for so long that makes the difference so noticeable. But the fundamentals haven't changed.
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ianj wrote:The only things the same between the original series and the new series are the tardis exterior, tardis noise, the character of the Doctor, (who now appears to be 1/2 human) and the sonic screwdriver. Everything else is changed, different. I do watch the new series ones,and matt Smith has a lovely "other-Worldliness about him) but Im not bothered by them; I wont be watching them in the future, whereas I will the original series----my heart lies with the proper series, the 1963-1989 era ( though , again, the later ones arent my cup of tea)
I disagree about the character of the Doctor being the same. It may be the same as some of the 80s incarnations which I haven't seen very much of, but not the earlier ones. We've had 9, who was constantly being rescued by Rose, or occasionally someone else - mostly female - until he ceased to seem "one step ahead" of events and seemed more 3 steps behind (except when having lunch with Blon Fel Foch, or whatever her name was, but that was played for laughs). E.g. he spent ages constructing a "Delta Wave" machine only to end up deciding not to use it. So not exactly in the same mould as the 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th Doctors, who did generally seem to have a cunning plan up their sleeves, plus a plan B for when that went wrong, and would react to incoming foes with "When I say run..." rather than "Maybe it's about time." Then we had the 10th Doctor, a "lonely god" who could solve almost anything with a wave of his magic wand, and knew all about every enemy in the universe - and some left over from the universe before. So rather unlike 1-4, who often had to find out where they were and who were the good guys and the bad guys. Of course that could be put down to the constraints of having far shorter stories now. (We also have a TARDIS that is under complete control, and can be used to create multi-layered paradoxes; this is very unlike at least the situation of 1-3, and 4 most of the time...)

Perhaps the Doctor's character changed after I originally stopped watching the programme, sometime late in Tom's tenure?
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LizR wrote:Perhaps the Doctor's character changed after I originally stopped watching the programme, sometime late in Tom's tenure?
Not to the extent of the character seen now. JNT decided, quite rightly, that even Tom had become (in his later serials) the all-knowing, all-powerful God like being - with K-9 and the sonic screwdriver there to combat any possible type of threatening scenario. Thus, to pave the way for Peter Davisons incarnation, K-9 was written out and the sonic screwdriver destroyed. A good decision IMO - The air of menace had really gone for Tom's last couple of seasons and these steps were taken to rectify this.
Davisons Doctor often lost or payed a price for his involvement with proceedings (Earthshock, Terminus, Warriors of the Deep, The Caves of Androzani) and some may say he was far too weakened and humanised as a result. I disagree.
If every situation can be solved by a 'magic wand' then it does become a rather tedious affair.
Colin Baker contrarily,was far more arrogant and assertive in his portrayal - but still was prone to mistakes (Attack of the Cybermen) and did not know the history of every foe he encountered (The Trial of a Time Lord). With McCoy, who had the most noticeable character development in such a short space of time (between seasons 25 and 26), I suppose he most resembed (in season 26) the Doctor we see today - Visiting desinations with a disinct purpose, setting up situations with a reason and knowing a great deal of what the outcome would be (Remembrance of the Daleks, Silver Nemesis, Battlefield, The Curse of Fenric, Ghost Light). This deliberate change from bumbling idiot to wise, shrewd manipulator sometimes worked against him too.
I think that when RTD decided on this Time War rubbish, with the sole purpose of making the timelords extinct, he elevated the Doctor to this kind of revered, mythical creature - as opposed to the benevolent, renengade alien that we had all come to know so well up until that point.
I suppose this is just another progression - an extension and happening in the life story of our hero which is entirely valid and credible - though there is no doubt that this particular episode in his history has altered his character and shaped the mould from what we always knew, to what we see today.
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ianj wrote:The only things the same between the original series and the new series are the tardis exterior, tardis noise, the character of the Doctor, (who now appears to be 1/2 human) and the sonic screwdriver. Everything else is changed, different. I do watch the new series ones,and matt Smith has a lovely "other-Worldliness about him) but Im not bothered by them; I wont be watching them in the future, whereas I will the original series----my heart lies with the proper series, the 1963-1989 era ( though , again, the later ones arent my cup of tea)
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Kamelion wrote:I suppose this is just another progression - an extension and happening in the life story of our hero which is entirely valid and credible - though there is no doubt that this particular episode in his history has altered his character and shaped the mould from what we always knew, to what we see today.
In terms of character, yes, I agree - but in terms of knowledge? How did the Doctor go from sabotaging the fluid link because he was curious about an alien city to knowing all about every planet in the Universe (currently estimated at around 40 trillion billion, by the way) ? He must read a lot between adventures? :D :shock:
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LizR wrote:How did the Doctor go from sabotaging the fluid link because he was curious about an alien city to knowing all about every planet in the Universe (currently estimated at around 40 trillion billion, by the way) ? He must read a lot between adventures? :D :shock:
Precisely - There, in a nutshell, is the flaw in todays interpretation of him. This 'God' like quality to him. Having said that, he was just as curious as the other passengers as to what possessed Mrs. Sylvestre...... :o
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LizR wrote:
Kamelion wrote:I suppose this is just another progression - an extension and happening in the life story of our hero which is entirely valid and credible - though there is no doubt that this particular episode in his history has altered his character and shaped the mould from what we always knew, to what we see today.
In terms of character, yes, I agree - but in terms of knowledge? How did the Doctor go from sabotaging the fluid link because he was curious about an alien city to knowing all about every planet in the Universe (currently estimated at around 40 trillion billion, by the way) ? He must read a lot between adventures? :D :shock:
He's had time to. He was comparatively young in his first incarnation, he's centuries older now. And we do know the first Doctor had a library card...
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tony ingram wrote:
LizR wrote:
Kamelion wrote:I suppose this is just another progression - an extension and happening in the life story of our hero which is entirely valid and credible - though there is no doubt that this particular episode in his history has altered his character and shaped the mould from what we always knew, to what we see today.
In terms of character, yes, I agree - but in terms of knowledge? How did the Doctor go from sabotaging the fluid link because he was curious about an alien city to knowing all about every planet in the Universe (currently estimated at around 40 trillion billion, by the way) ? He must read a lot between adventures? :D :shock:
He's had time to. He was comparatively young in his first incarnation, he's centuries older now. And we do know the first Doctor had a library card...
Ooooh, yes. Let me whip out my trusty calculator. If the Doctor is, let's say, 1000 years old, he's had time to read up on approximately......let's see...yes, one trillionth of the planets in the universe (assuming the above estimate is in the right ball park, which given the number of planets discovered in the last few years isn't unreasonable).

Mind you, that's assuming he reads about one planet every second of his life. Because even a Time Lord is a lot smaller than the universe! You may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's... :D
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what I argued was the show had NOT changed completely.....which it hadn't

the 'style' of the show altered WITHIN each era....but not to the point where it was a completely different show (possibly one exception being the Graham Williams / Douglas Adams 'play it for cheap laughs' part of Tom Baker's era - where Tom had got 'out of control')

The line Nimon says re '(the style) feels far more Adult' is of course just his opinion (and regardless of how many on here might share it I certainly don't...) ....I'd equally argue there were early sixties b/w stories that were every bit as 'Adult' as the seventies or later - the fact something is in b/w & on a megre budget with a now faded picture does not mean it is any less Adult necessarily....there were also at the same time many later examples of over acting, bored acting, non acting, & cheapo sets in 70's & 80's Dr.Who as ever there were on occasion before...

Re comparing the various decades of Classic Dr.Who i don't think HALF as much changed even atmosphere wise as some later fans - no doubt promoting 'Their era' of Dr.Who - like to try to convince us of....in terms of innovation virtually everything about the programme that was so unique was done back in the sixties & later eras just built on what had already been established - often indeed re-hashing older concepts to the full...

i.e. Daleks fight Movellans...to a Draw - just as years before Daleks had fought Mechanoids...to a Draw - in both cases neither side won.... again basic old concepts re-visited but this time in colour...

I never found the supposedly sacrosanct Hinchcliffe era beyond criticism either....Jago in my opinion ago over acts terribly in 'Talons of Weng Chiang' ....as do a few others in other adventures then...and in truth they just did a tour de force of the old Hammer film monsters (Vampires held back until later) - enjoyable stories yes, well made yes, but nothing much re originality at all - I enjoy those tales but the OTT 'Over praise' of them is really just Fanboy squee....

I don't think there is that much difference overall in the show....although some VERY Poor regular actors were later in it...!!

I think it's more a case of people who began watching it later trying to 'promote' THEIR eras as best....also true with NuWho today.....and 'belittle' the earlier eras accordingly...THEY choose to see things better or poorer to suit themselves...

there have been strong & weaker tales throughout the entire run of Classic Dr.Who...with larger & smaller budgets & better and poorer supporting casts etc - overall Classic Dr.Who was pretty much the same overall programme with just some stylistic alterations (even within each Doctor's eras) in my view....

NuWho:

may 'borrow' things & a bit of past history from the old show - but in all other aspects it is different....

the Lead charcter is mostly the female companion....normally HER Family or HER Life, HER relationships...she takes up much of the centre stage of the thing...the whole thing normally centres on her...

the character of 'the Doctor' is barely recognisable as the Classic show character - he veers from supporting role to omnipotent God Like being...who will duly require bailing out by his companion(s) every so often....he will go from 'know all' to 'clueless' as required (if they need to 'Big up' another mostly female character - say River Song etc)

The 'Doctor' is made far too full of himself' as a character too....he doesn't really NEED to explore Time & Space...cos he's been there, seen it, got the Tee Shirt....all before anyway....

yet he still needs to over rely on his Sonic Screwdriver...to get himself, RTD, Moff and co...out of a thousand backed into plot corners mega fast....!

A companion's clueless boyfriend is sometimes featured...he's the 'Fall guy' often made to look silly...to promote the Greatness of both the current female companion & The Doctor...( no real bond of friendship will ever be developed between the male companion and The Doctor as a rule...)

NuWho plays to 'PC' BBC rules of course - A Space craft Commander or a senior military figure will be female (probably non white) unless it's a flawed character ...then it can be a male - quite likely an American or Middle/Upper Class British...(who gets either killed or loses command)

Kids are plugged quite often too as being superior to adults...the kids act like adults...the adults act like kids...

Foes are really quite Laughable....often adapted from Zoo creatures or otherewise just weak copies of older series foes...note that NONE of these will ever actually try to KILL The Doctor....his 'words' & 'mere presence' can intimidate them...this is utterly absurd re story telling in truth - RTD tended to use the 'Emo Drivel' card...Moff will hide behind a 'Trusty Paradox' (that on deeper thought falls apart)...to hide the fact their story is wafer thin really...!!!

...oh and don't forget the 'Everybody Lives' rule.....

stories often end about ten minutes before the episode....a gushing emo drivel scene will be 'tacked on' to fill up the running time....

in all the thing is a fantasy led aimed at 'modern poor attention span viewer' purely "style over substance" piece of forgettable disposable modern TV....nothing like the Classic show, which even at it's weakest at least tried to tell stories that held together ...

IF'NuWho' were forced to drop all aspects taken from the classic show....no Tardis, No Daleks, No (now 'multi purpose') Sonic Screwdriver etc....and forced to stand up as a series in it's OWN right....I do wonder how long before viewers began to drift away...
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alvin wrote:in all the thing is a fantasy led aimed at 'modern poor attention span viewer' purely "style over substance" piece of forgettable disposable modern TV....nothing like the Classic show, which even at it's weakest at least tried to tell stories that held together ...
The weird thing, IMHO, is that clearly modern viewers can follow complex stories, clearly they can cope with well written characters, clearly they don't need "everyone lives" (or everyone important), and clearly they don't need an OTT PC approach to gender, race and sexuality rammed down their throats. Because, like me, they still watch and enjoy shows like (for example) "Spooks" and "Primeval," which are generally well written, which don't treat the viewer as an idiot, which (on the whole) have realistic characters, in which, often, anyone can die, which push the "emo button" judiciously (and often to great effect) rather than continually, and which are more or less neutral towards PC-ness, preferring to show things as they are (in that particular respect, no matter how much they may be fantasies in others).

If we need to hand our brains in at the door before watching modern TV, as the writers of some programmes seem to think, how come these shows are still on the air?
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alvin wrote:what I argued was the show had NOT changed completely.....which it hadn't

the 'style' of the show altered WITHIN each era....but not to the point where it was a completely different show (possibly one exception being the Graham Williams / Douglas Adams 'play it for cheap laughs' part of Tom Baker's era - where Tom had got 'out of control')

The line Nimon says re '(the style) feels far more Adult' is of course just his opinion (and regardless of how many on here might share it I certainly don't...) ....I'd equally argue there were early sixties b/w stories that were every bit as 'Adult' as the seventies or later - the fact something is in b/w & on a megre budget with a now faded picture does not mean it is any less Adult necessarily....there were also at the same time many later examples of over acting, bored acting, non acting, & cheapo sets in 70's & 80's Dr.Who as ever there were on occasion before...

Re comparing the various decades of Classic Dr.Who i don't think HALF as much changed even atmosphere wise as some later fans - no doubt promoting 'Their era' of Dr.Who - like to try to convince us of....in terms of innovation virtually everything about the programme that was so unique was done back in the sixties & later eras just built on what had already been established - often indeed re-hashing older concepts to the full...

i.e. Daleks fight Movellans...to a Draw - just as years before Daleks had fought Mechanoids...to a Draw - in both cases neither side won.... again basic old concepts re-visited but this time in colour...

I never found the supposedly sacrosanct Hinchcliffe era beyond criticism either....Jago in my opinion ago over acts terribly in 'Talons of Weng Chiang' ....as do a few others in other adventures then...and in truth they just did a tour de force of the old Hammer film monsters (Vampires held back until later) - enjoyable stories yes, well made yes, but nothing much re originality at all - I enjoy those tales but the OTT 'Over praise' of them is really just Fanboy squee....

I don't think there is that much difference overall in the show....although some VERY Poor regular actors were later in it...!!

I think it's more a case of people who began watching it later trying to 'promote' THEIR eras as best....also true with NuWho today.....and 'belittle' the earlier eras accordingly...THEY choose to see things better or poorer to suit themselves...

there have been strong & weaker tales throughout the entire run of Classic Dr.Who...with larger & smaller budgets & better and poorer supporting casts etc - overall Classic Dr.Who was pretty much the same overall programme with just some stylistic alterations (even within each Doctor's eras) in my view....

NuWho:

may 'borrow' things & a bit of past history from the old show - but in all other aspects it is different....

the Lead charcter is mostly the female companion....normally HER Family or HER Life, HER relationships...she takes up much of the centre stage of the thing...the whole thing normally centres on her...

the character of 'the Doctor' is barely recognisable as the Classic show character - he veers from supporting role to omnipotent God Like being...who will duly require bailing out by his companion(s) every so often....he will go from 'know all' to 'clueless' as required (if they need to 'Big up' another mostly female character - say River Song etc)

The 'Doctor' is made far too full of himself' as a character too....he doesn't really NEED to explore Time & Space...cos he's been there, seen it, got the Tee Shirt....all before anyway....

yet he still needs to over rely on his Sonic Screwdriver...to get himself, RTD, Moff and co...out of a thousand backed into plot corners mega fast....!

A companion's clueless boyfriend is sometimes featured...he's the 'Fall guy' often made to look silly...to promote the Greatness of both the current female companion & The Doctor...( no real bond of friendship will ever be developed between the male companion and The Doctor as a rule...)

NuWho plays to 'PC' BBC rules of course - A Space craft Commander or a senior military figure will be female (probably non white) unless it's a flawed character ...then it can be a male - quite likely an American or Middle/Upper Class British...(who gets either killed or loses command)

Kids are plugged quite often too as being superior to adults...the kids act like adults...the adults act like kids...

Foes are really quite Laughable....often adapted from Zoo creatures or otherewise just weak copies of older series foes...note that NONE of these will ever actually try to KILL The Doctor....his 'words' & 'mere presence' can intimidate them...this is utterly absurd re story telling in truth - RTD tended to use the 'Emo Drivel' card...Moff will hide behind a 'Trusty Paradox' (that on deeper thought falls apart)...to hide the fact their story is wafer thin really...!!!

...oh and don't forget the 'Everybody Lives' rule.....

stories often end about ten minutes before the episode....a gushing emo drivel scene will be 'tacked on' to fill up the running time....

in all the thing is a fantasy led aimed at 'modern poor attention span viewer' purely "style over substance" piece of forgettable disposable modern TV....nothing like the Classic show, which even at it's weakest at least tried to tell stories that held together ...

IF'NuWho' were forced to drop all aspects taken from the classic show....no Tardis, No Daleks, No (now 'multi purpose') Sonic Screwdriver etc....and forced to stand up as a series in it's OWN right....I do wonder how long before viewers began to drift away...
Just to pick a few points up here on what you said,

Yes i guess that the 'more adult feel' is in part my opinion but if you look at the Hintchcliff stuff the level of violence in his stoires feels far stronger than what was in the show before and this is what i base my 'more adult opinion on. I know Barry Letts made a comment on this on one of the dvds. I wouldn't really say that the 60s stuff is just as adult as the mid 70s stuff though, infact only one example springs to mind that could come close and that's the bit in Keys Of marinus when the bloke in the frozen wasteland tries to force himself onto Barbara

I'm glad you picked up on the Williams / Adams bit. Indeed if you watch season 17 and then season 18 after, apart from having Tom, Lalla and the Tardis in they do both look and feel like diffrent shows.

There is some brilliant over acting in the classic series (I love some over acting it's fun). Professor Zarof in Underwater menace and the late great Graham Crowden in Horns of Nimon Spring to mine as brillaint and entertaining over acting, as does Anthony Ainley at times.

I don't agree with you saying that people who started to watch later try to promote thier era as the best. I started watching in the 80s, Logopolis onwards, but i don't really count any any era as the best. I like each diffrent era for its own merrits. I have more of a fondness for the 80s stuff i watched as a kid but i also like stuff from both the 60s and 70s the same, for example season 17 is my favorite season.

I still think that the show changed from when it started to when it finished in 1989 to now, and that's a good thing. Each Doctor has their own diffrent charter and the stroies are catered to each diffrent Doctor and that's a really good thing that has ensured that the series has last so long. To have all these diffrent feeling eras of the show means that you can pick a story set to how you feel.
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LizR
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"There comes a time when a series need new input. It's not that I wasn't fond of Doctor Who, I simply felt that the time had come. It had been eighteen very concentrated months, something like seventy shows. I know people do soaps forever now, but I felt Doctor Who needed someone to come in with a different view." -- Verity Lambert.

So change, my dear.....yes....but not necessarily as much as RTD introduced, which seems more like creating a new show with a few of the old tropes/props.

My problem with RTD wasn't that he changed the show, but that his stories were poorly constructed, full of gimmicks, agendas, "messages," etc, and that the people/aliens were often not very well characterised. For someone who's always moaning about the lack of ethnic diversity in certain shows, he isn't very good at actually portraying someone convincingly unless they're white, male and lower middle class. Everyone else is a caricature (usually of an evil capitalist, although we do get "action girl" and "whining older woman" thrown in.) I mean, someone who can't even get the Daleks right isn't exactly doing very well on the characterisation front...
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