Rate Victory of the Daleks

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Total votes: 222
southanesq
 
 
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feline1 wrote: Huh? It was cancelled because it was sh1t, and was getting made for John Nathan-Turner, a tasteless loon
who enjoyed casting Hale & Pace, Ken Dodd, Bonnie Langford, and making Colin Baker wear a clown's outfit. And getting Keff McCullough to do the music.
I think the last time it was "written for me" was probably when Chris Bidmead gave us Warrior's Gate, Logopolis, Castrovalva et al.
All true, feline1. I am also a big fan of Bidmead's tenure. I waffled and was rather pompous in my original post - although, in my defense, it was past midnight when I posted!

When I referred to "you or me" I meant Fandom in general. We are, after all, a tiny percentage of Doctor Who's total audience. No more than tens of people with a BARB box.

I would add, however, that from from season 20 onwards JN-T effectively made the show for what, I guess, would now be called the "Squee" brigade. An example of this is "Attack of the Cybermen" (sorry, Ian) - a direct sequel to a (then) 20 year-old story that wasn't even in the archive when "Attack" was transmitted!

For all his faults, I believe RTD made the show he wanted to, and it was one that was never insular in the way that 80's "Who" was. I didn't rate it, but I also appreciate the gems within it.

By the same token, I believe Moffat is making the show that he wants to. There will be duff episodes, but hopefully more good than bad. Certainly one would hope that a "US vs. THEM" attitude doesn't develop within Fandom, 'cos it was it was really, really depressing the first time round.

I don't think that "Doctor Who" is going run for another 26 years; no, I suspect the model will be three seasons > Specials > New Doctor. But it's not going to go anywhere soon, either. It took seven years of getting progressively worse to finish it off the last time.

But I still rate "Ghost Light", dammit!

I'll start to worry when they announce "The Return of Magnus Greel" as the main story arc of a season, and not because "Victory of the Daleks" was a below average episode ;)
Lord Privy Toastrack
 
 
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feline1 wrote:Yeah I must say that Patrick Troughton was excellent in being scared of the daleks.

One of the best things about 'Power of the Daleks' (from what I can hear from the audio) is how the regeneration-addled Doctor (who really is being *very* odd) is so agitated and distressed by the daleks being there, which only makes everyone else think he's more of a loony than ever, and take him even less seriously (like he's a child scared of something on telly.... and of course he *is* a child again, for a day or two, having just been reborn) - excellent dramatic stuff....
....and in the remaining episode of Evil of the Daleks, the scene where Troughton realises that Waterfield's friends are daleks, and the absolute dread he displays, are superb - totally sells it.
Yeah, that stuff is great (from what I hear on the audio).

But, for my money, the best "holy sh*t the daleks are scary" moment is in "Dalek" when Eccleston realizes he is trapped in a small room with one. That was chilling IMO. Actually, the whole episode was quite good, showing how just one dalek is dangerous - an clever - enough to take out a mass of armed soldiers.
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Kajaboy
 
 
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NoSoul wrote:
Oh Kajaboy, you had me going there for a second. Twin an enjoyable romp? That's too funny....

Why do people always think I am joking when I say that?
My next door neighbour mixed up her KY jelly with the superglue. I asked her how she managed that but her lips are sealed.
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Kajaboy
 
 
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markhuk wrote:
So how come the Doctor still lives ?
Its the same excuse for each of the stories - dont be deliberately obtuse - we all know theyre not going to kill him,
the villians always gloat to the captured hero - its a staple - indeed a cliche of the genre

your argument on this is pointless - you dont like it fine - im sure everyone accepts it but coming up with spurious reasons like this is just silly.
You asked when did the Daleks fire first and I told you. In most cases he only got away by the skin of his teeth. At the end of The Stolen Earth, having missed spoilers etc, I really thought they had got him this time.

As LizR rightly says there has to be some suspension of disbelief every week otherwise why bother watching. Unless you know the actor who is playing the Doctor is leaving than you know full well that the Doctor will survive.
My next door neighbour mixed up her KY jelly with the superglue. I asked her how she managed that but her lips are sealed.
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'teleportNOW!'
 
 
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Fans of the show writing for Dr Who actually CONSTRAINS them, in my opinion.

Look at Mark Gatiss, for example - his writing in things like The League of Gentlemen was superbly original and did what it wanted and needed to be itself.
When he finds himself writing for Dr Who, he is suddenly encumbered by his desire to write 'good Doctor Who'. That's no longer art. Artists are obliged and impelled to do whatever the hell they want, and be original, not be in the thrall of 40 year's of legacy.
Makkabee
 
 
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feline1 wrote:Fans of the show writing for Dr Who actually CONSTRAINS them, in my opinion.

Look at Mark Gatiss, for example - his writing in things like The League of Gentlemen was superbly original and did what it wanted and needed to be itself.
When he finds himself writing for Dr Who, he is suddenly encumbered by his desire to write 'good Doctor Who'. That's no longer art. Artists are obliged and impelled to do whatever the hell they want, and be original, not be in the thrall of 40 year's of legacy.
Good art can be created under fairly rigid restraints (for example, there's some truly outstanding poetry written under very strict rules about rhyme and meter). Sometimes those restraints spur on the artist's imagination and produce better work than what you might have gotten given a more free-wheeling approach.

Mind you, I'm not defending Gatiss's work on Doctor Who specifically, but I do think it's reasonable for an artist working on a collective project like Doctor Who to try to work within the constraints of the show's legacy. I'm certainly not saying you can't take a radically new approach about anything, but when you're stepping into a pre-established show certain core values and the history of the program should be respected.

Maybe Gatiss can't strike that balance, in which case he'd be better off sticking to more original projects. Nothing wrong with that.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time." Abraham Lincoln (attributed)
Zenith
 
 
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I thought it interesting that Gatiss' script this time compared to the very disciplined Unquiet Dead was so freewheeling and indulgent, not what i'd expected from the Moffatt regime, it felt a very whimsy story and plot which for a Dalek story especially is unusual. Overall with the redesign etc it is interesting to speculate how far the once ultra strict Nation Estate has loosened up where they're concerned, but personally I do think they're being a bit overused perhaps in this new era - there's a lot of truth in the suggestion they are very limited creations and that rying to find new variations on the theme to fuel stories was a perennial problem in the original series... still, compared to the ultra-dull reworked Cybermen they're positively fascinating!
Kafka
 
 
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I really enjoyed the episode, but for me anything's going to be a positive after watching David Tennant and RTD spinning out of control into a self-indulgent spiral of space opera and constipated gurning. It was worse than all that undergraduate humour that afflicted Tom Baker's run after Phillip Hinchcliffe left.

Matt Smith has a really nice balance of physical slapstick and subtle expressiveness...well, compared to the last incumbent. The costume might hark back to Troughton, but the performance and character makes me think of a youthful Jon Pertwee.

And I like those new daleks. Really. They look like they've rolled off the iMac production line. I was almost expecting to see the Apple logo lit up on their (unsettlingly huge) backsides. :shock:
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LizR
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feline1 wrote:....and in the remaining episode of Evil of the Daleks, the scene where Troughton realises that Waterfield's friends are daleks, and the absolute dread he displays, are superb - totally sells it.
One of my all-time favourite "Doctor Who" scenes...
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LizR
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Lord Privy Toastrack wrote:But, for my money, the best "holy sh*t the daleks are scary" moment is in "Dalek" when Eccleston realizes he is trapped in a small room with one. That was chilling IMO. Actually, the whole episode was quite good, showing how just one dalek is dangerous - an clever - enough to take out a mass of armed soldiers.
I agree. However, these comments from the "Radio Times episode guide", published in 2005, shows just how difficult it was to get even that amount of Dalek related terror onto screen, because at least one influential person was dead set against it...
RUSSELL T DAVIES ON ... MONSTERS
Plus, of course, there are the Daleks. (...) all the aspects that used to make them slightly ridiculous (...) we've subverted and made rather sinister. You won't like what they do with their sink plungers now. The other things that will surprise you is that they'll make you feel sorry for them. Never thought a grown man would cry over a Dalek? Wait and see!
Episode 6
Dalek
So, will you weep for the poor little Dalek? Russell T Davies says you will.
Written by Rob Shearman
Directed by Joe Ahearne
...and to make sure nothing like this happened again, "Dalek" was the last time in RTD's stewardship that the wee, sleekest, cowering, timorous beasties were allowed to be scary.
vindu
 
 
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Oh my word... seeing "Evil 2" again makes me weep...

(i)...with joy, for how extraordinary Troughton was as an actor;
(ii)...with despair, for the lost episodes;
(iii)...with sorrow, that more people do not appreciate how good Doctor Who used to be.

Absolutely that's what was missing from the script, from Matt's acting, and from the direction: any sense that the Doctor could be afraid of the Daleks. Time War or no Time War, the Doctor should be scared of the main threat. He should be creeping and sidling around them, ever watchful for the gunstalk. He should know that he could be killed in an instant. He should be wary. He should be respectful.

cheers
Vin
vindu
 
 
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Does anyone here think that the story would have been a couple of notches better if the Daleks had actually been bluffing? The Doctor calls off the attack, the Daleks escape, the Doctor rushes back afraid that the Daleks have started up the bomb anyway, he dismantles the android guy, and finds... nothing.

Android guy, dead on the floor, irreparable, because the Doctor didn't want to take any chances. Doctor trying and failing to console himself with the thought that android guy was never really alive. Wouldn't that have been a wonderful victory? The Daleks win by psyching the Doctor out. Poetic justice for the jammy Doctor and his jammy dodger.

The ten/fifteen minutes saved at the end of the episode could be used to extending the first half of the episode and build up the tension and incongruity of the servant Daleks.

cheers
Vin
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markhuk
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Kajaboy wrote:
markhuk wrote:
So how come the Doctor still lives ?
Its the same excuse for each of the stories - dont be deliberately obtuse - we all know theyre not going to kill him,
the villians always gloat to the captured hero - its a staple - indeed a cliche of the genre

your argument on this is pointless - you dont like it fine - im sure everyone accepts it but coming up with spurious reasons like this is just silly.
You asked when did the Daleks fire first and I told you. In most cases he only got away by the skin of his teeth. At the end of The Stolen Earth, having missed spoilers etc, I really thought they had got him this time.

As LizR rightly says there has to be some suspension of disbelief every week otherwise why bother watching. Unless you know the actor who is playing the Doctor is leaving than you know full well that the Doctor will survive.
Yove completely missed the point here

The Daleks have had millions of chances to kill himand havent - why single out 1 episode that this happens in and slag it off because of it but conveniently ignore all the other times it has happened.
Suspension of disbelief is all well and good but you cant use it as an excuse to criticise one episode whilst saying other episodes are good - Journeys End - had umpteen oppertunities for them to kill him outright and it never happened - I see you arent criticising that one - personally I think it was a dreadful story with a piss poor resolution but I put that down to RTD being unable to come up with a satisfactory resolution for any story when he'd built the threat up so high, but thats a discussion for another place.
I think you are forgetting that your whole point was "why didnt the Daleks just shoot him" - and as I pointed out they have had may chances to do that in the past - youve then completely ignored your original comment and accused me of
having no suspension of disbelief.
So once again your argument is crap.
Personally I dont care that you didnt like the episode - that is entirely up to you but I really wish youd stop giving silly reasons for youre dislike of it.
It's perfectly ok to not like it - I hate Logopolis and Castrovalva - I think they were the worst episodes ever made because they were so boring but it doesnt bother me that others like them and i dont give daft excuses to explain why.
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LizR
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vindu wrote:Does anyone here think that the story would have been a couple of notches better if the Daleks had actually been bluffing? The Doctor calls off the attack, the Daleks escape, the Doctor rushes back afraid that the Daleks have started up the bomb anyway, he dismantles the android guy, and finds... nothing.

Android guy, dead on the floor, irreparable, because the Doctor didn't want to take any chances. Doctor trying and failing to console himself with the thought that android guy was never really alive. Wouldn't that have been a wonderful victory? The Daleks win by psyching the Doctor out. Poetic justice for the jammy Doctor and his jammy dodger.

The ten/fifteen minutes saved at the end of the episode could be used to extending the first half of the episode and build up the tension and incongruity of the servant Daleks.
Agreed, agreed, totally agreed. They just could resist getting all sentimental over a character we will probably never see again. Unfortunately, Moffat has shown many times that his main weakness is a sentimental streak that is rather at odds with the general spirit of "Doctor Who" (though fine in moderation).
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markhuk
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feline1 wrote:Fans of the show writing for Dr Who actually CONSTRAINS them, in my opinion.

Look at Mark Gatiss, for example - his writing in things like The League of Gentlemen was superbly original and did what it wanted and needed to be itself.
When he finds himself writing for Dr Who, he is suddenly encumbered by his desire to write 'good Doctor Who'. That's no longer art. Artists are obliged and impelled to do whatever the hell they want, and be original, not be in the thrall of 40 year's of legacy.
Interesting comments again Feline and oddly Im in agreement with some of them
I do feel Gatiss wass constrained - I think that he was asked to remake the Daleks and to come up with a way for them to be free of the constraints of the Time War.
Unlike you I do think that he succeeded pretty well in re-establishing the Daleks whilst delivering a perfectly decent story that was accessible and entertaining to the general public.
I have to agree with the comments on the lack of fear shown though - although I would say he seemed pretty nevous of the new Daleks - but isnt it a symptom of new Who in general that he has no fearof his enemies - from the trailer he says to a young boy who has asked if hes scared of the monsters " naah theyre scared of me" - maybe just to keep the boys spirits up but it may be that thats how the production teams now look at him.
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LizR
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markhuk wrote:The Daleks have had millions of chances to kill himand havent - why single out 1 episode that this happens in and slag it off because of it but conveniently ignore all the other times it has happened.
Suspension of disbelief is all well and good but you cant use it as an excuse to criticise one episode whilst saying other episodes are good - Journeys End - had umpteen oppertunities for them to kill him outright and it never happened - I see you arent criticising that one - personally I think it was a dreadful story with a piss poor resolution but I put that down to RTD being unable to come up with a satisfactory resolution for any story when he'd built the threat up so high, but thats a discussion for another place.
Personally, I agree with everything you've said about "Journey's End." (Actually, a bit ironically, this is the only story I can remember in which a Dalek actually does shoot the Doctor! Although the only result is the wince-inducing culmination of the Doctor-Rose thang, in which she gets palmed off with a surrogate Doctor-lite...)

I do however think it's valid to criticise a story because the Daleks, or anyone else, acts out of character, unless we're given a good reason for it. The Daleks have a reputation as ruthless killers (the Doctor says as much to Winston Churchill) so it's reasonable for the viewer to expect them to act that way. In "The Chase," for example, there are several occasions when they don't kill every "inferior being" they encounter, because they are too busy trying to catch the Doctor - however, once they capture the TARDIS and think they can spare some time to carry out their mission of wiping out "worthless beings", they promptly zap some Aridians. Similarly, in "Parting of the Ways", they spend a lot of time exterminating people just because they can, even though it isn't their primary objective.
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LizR
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markhuk wrote:I have to agree with the comments on the lack of fear shown though - although I would say he seemed pretty nevous of the new Daleks - but isnt it a symptom of new Who in general that he has no fearof his enemies - from the trailer he says to a young boy who has asked if hes scared of the monsters " naah theyre scared of me" - maybe just to keep the boys spirits up but it may be that thats how the production teams now look at him.
It is indeed a symptom of a lot of new Who, and one I personally think is bad storytelling. One reason the Weeping Angels are scary is because the characters, and in particular the Doctor, act as though they're scared of them (even via a message on a DVD!) But the Daleks seem to have lost that, perhaps even before new Who... although the Doctor seemed pretty scared in "Remembrance" when he was locked in the cellar with one coming up the stairs behind him... When I watched DW in my youth, I was always nervously aware of the Daleks' guns, and that there was a nasty little creature inside itching to press the trigger, only held back because it had a good reason to spare the lives of the Doctor and his companions....for the time being. And the Doctor knew it, too.
The_Jugulator
 
 
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This was such an appallingly dismal episode that I cannot bring my self to write any constructive criticism, so I shall stick with my wife's short and to the point review: "What a load of f****** b******"

BBC 2 time slot, here we come.....
bingo99
 
 
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feline1 wrote:Fans of the show writing for Dr Who actually CONSTRAINS them, in my opinion.

Look at Mark Gatiss, for example - his writing in things like The League of Gentlemen was superbly original and did what it wanted and needed to be itself.
When he finds himself writing for Dr Who, he is suddenly encumbered by his desire to write 'good Doctor Who'. That's no longer art. Artists are obliged and impelled to do whatever the hell they want, and be original, not be in the thrall of 40 year's of legacy.
Exactly, some of the most exciting Who couldn't give a damn about what the show did previously. The Hinchcliffe gothic or Season 7 era couldn't give a damn about paying respect to Hartnell or whoever, Same with the likes of Androzani. Doctor Who should stop paying tribute to itself, that is an enemy of art.
"Scriptwriters are confident they'll make a huge impact. Everyone remembers the Daleks and the Cyberman, but not a lot else if they're honest. The Tritovore will change that. They will last long in the memory" - New Who PR, 2009
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