A SHOW IN CRISIS?: What Should the BBC Do Now?

General Doctor Who discussion hosted by Planet Mondas Forum.

What do you think would be the wisest course of action for the BBC to now take?

TOTAL REBOOT: Year Zero Reset/Hartnell Take 2!
5
10%
SUBTLE RETCON: (Stay in Same Universe/continuity, But Correct the Stupid Bits)
15
31%
MULTIVERSE RELAUNCH: (Switch to a Different Universe Where the Stupid Bits Never Existed)
10
20%
END IT NOW - FOREVER!: Total permanent cancellation! Forever! No revivals ever again.
14
29%
WHAT CRISIS?: Let It Be!
5
10%
 
Total votes: 49
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Cygnus Prime
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Assuming that you think the show is currently doing less than fine, what do you think would be the wisest course of action for the BBC to now take?




TOTAL REBOOT:: Year Zero. AN UNEARTHLY CHILD: take 2. Let's wipe the slate clean and start all over again, with a new First Doctor. This could take the form of a tv show. This could take the form of a movie. It never references any previous WHO that has ever been. Ever.

A SUBTLE RETCON OF THE CURRENT SHOW'S STUPID BITS: A brilliant, brand new Showrunner comes in and course-corrects the show in an extremely clever way, freeing it from the morass it has got into and ready for excellent new adventures with the 14th, 15th, 16th Doctor etc. This new showrunner may discount such controversial areas as gender changing - and perhaps even the odd Doctor - striking them from the continuity in some clever, subtle, but believable way! They never happened now (and are tacitly acknowledged as a mistake best forgotten). But the larger history and continuity of the show would remain intact and able to be drawn upon, without needing to reboot or do any kind of dramatic relaunch. We stay in the same Universe and continuity that we have always been in.

MULTIVERSE RELAUNCH: Basically halt/ditch the current show and then eventually relaunch WHO in what is (gradually) revealed to be a different universe. The benefit of this is that nothing gets discounted (It's all happening, but in different universes), but that we are now simply in an alternative Universe where all of the more controversial and downright stupid things definitely ain't canon. We could even go back to an earlier Doctor. (See Joseph's post on page 1 of this thread.)

TOTAL CANCELLATION: You don't trust the BBC - or anyone else - to course-correct, relaunch, or reboot - and are, in fact, expecting them to make even further crass mistakes in future! The show is a shambling joke of a zombie that needs putting down. Let the show - the Classic Show (and the good bits of the Modern Show) finally rest in peace.

LET IT BE!: There's nothing wrong with the show! Enough with the complicated solutions (reset, reboot, relaunch, retcon!) to non-existent problems! And enough of this talk of killing the show! It has always evolved and will continue to evolve. Change hurts, but is ultimately always good for WHO. And even the worst and stupidest of mistakes get smoothed out by the passage of time. Just chill, everyone!




Which of the above would it (more or less) be?









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Decanonise Jodie Whittaker and have the next Doctor appear in Peter Capaldi's clothes. It was all just a bad dream and The Doctor is back and he is ready to go.

But I can dream. 8-)
The Doctor died with Capaldi. The Chibnall era is non-canon.

There are no Doctors before William Hartnell.

Without respect, we reject.

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Option 2 is the only way I'll be watching, and it ain't gonna happen, so I guess it's done. Kick the entirety of New Who out of the continuity and start again with a new sequel to classic, and one that actually remotely resembles it instead of nothing but a self-indulgent and ultimately destructive pisstake.
A total reboot is utterly unnecessary and insulting, as if blaming the classic series for the shitfest the modern hacks have turned the reboot series into.
(Doctor Who) has been hijacked and redefined as a lucrative modern franchise. They've literally taken a square peg and painfully made it fit a round hole by taking enormous liberties with much of its fundamental essence. There's no turning back now.

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I agree with Ian, option 2 would be best. This is after all what Moffat attempted, possibly more than once, although for his own purposes rather than ours (I kind of lost count of the number of times history had been rewritten). Of course the Time War was an attempt at this, to start with a clean slate, though that didn't work out too well either, IMHO. But the basic idea is good, maybe with someone who's a better writer in charge that idea could be revisited. Starting it from "Genesis" really put it into the wider canon, and more or less at a pivotal point in the show's history.

So that would fix it for us... but as Ian says it ain't gonna happen.
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Bowtiesarecool wrote:Decanonise Jodie Whittaker and have the next Doctor appear in Peter Capaldi's clothes. It was all just a bad dream and The Doctor is back and he is ready to go.
OR, let that last episode that retconned Hartnell's Doctor into a clueless sexist pig be a dream, and give Capaldi two more seasons, with good stories this time.

I can dream too! :D
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cloudy day wrote:
Bowtiesarecool wrote:Decanonise Jodie Whittaker and have the next Doctor appear in Peter Capaldi's clothes. It was all just a bad dream and The Doctor is back and he is ready to go.
OR, let that last episode that retconned Hartnell's Doctor into a clueless sexist pig be a dream, and give Capaldi two more seasons, with good stories this time.

I can dream too! :D
That works for me. :D Capaldi's brilliant and he would be on fire with brilliant writing.
The Doctor died with Capaldi. The Chibnall era is non-canon.

There are no Doctors before William Hartnell.

Without respect, we reject.

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Bowtiesarecool wrote:
cloudy day wrote:
Bowtiesarecool wrote:Decanonise Jodie Whittaker and have the next Doctor appear in Peter Capaldi's clothes. It was all just a bad dream and The Doctor is back and he is ready to go.
OR, let that last episode that retconned Hartnell's Doctor into a clueless sexist pig be a dream, and give Capaldi two more seasons, with good stories this time.

I can dream too! :D
That works for me. :D Capaldi's brilliant and he would be on fire with brilliant writing.
I go along with this. Shame one of us isn't a future showrunner so we can have it.
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iank wrote:Kick the entirety of New Who out of the continuity and start again with a new sequel to classic

I like the idea of that. I think McGann would probably have to go too, but could actually live with that.

It's drastic, yes, but like a gangrenous limb, you sometime have to cut the whole leg off when bits of the leg are still fine! :lol:

Good Doctors in Smith and Capaldi - and sometimes Tennant - but they all were compromised by awful writing imo. And the Hartnell sexist thing was indeed loathsome.

But any kind of retcon, drastic or discrete, is never gonna happen, like everybody says. :(


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To veer slightly off-topic (and also to deflect us to the ANIMATION board), would the SHALKA 9th Doctor have been any better, which was, of course, official for a very short time, then discarded in favour of the Ecclescake 9th Doctor........

........ or would it have been the wrong course to pursue?




THE ROAD NOT TRAVELLED:

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=1238&p=390645#p390645

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Strictly whimsy, but.......


Capaldi as an 8th Doctor who has lost his memory?

But does remember that half an hour ago he was a spoon playing Scotsman?


(Let fans tear their hair out explaining the rest! :lol: )*

And at least he could finally maybe play it the way he always wanted to?


* ... plus security guards posted at the studio gates to keep RTD, Moffat, Chibnall, Gatiss etc. away from the production.
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Well its quite simple for me.

Use the multiverse formula.

Cancel Jodie, wait a few years then bring it back with a new Doctor. Don't reveal which version he is, just have him show up and go on new adventures, and then once the New, New versions has been established, have him casually refer to being on his 9th life.

Just a throwaway remark like.

"All 9 of me have always loved that painting."

Then bam, New Who is gone for good. However I wouldn't completely retcon New Who. Instead I'd reveal that New Who took place in an alternate universe to this version.

I'd do a story where the Daleks from Doctor Who 3's universe, and the New Who universe team up to destroy every universe, forcing the Doctors from both universes to work together. (I'd probably bring back Capaldi for this as he deserves better writing.)

That story could be quite fun. You'd have the New Who bling Dalek models, and Classic era models working together, as well as their servants like Colony Sarf, Ogrons, Robomen, Dalek puppets, and the Classic and New model of Emperor, two versions of Davros (the Remembrance casing one and the New Who one with the metal hand.)

The two Doctors would stop the Daleks and part on good terms, and from then on, you'd have the odd story with both Doctors coming together. You'd also have alternate versions of New Who monsters like the Angels, and even characters. Like for instance in DW 3's universe, Martha could be the head of UNIT.

Also I'd have Captain Jack fall into this universe and make the odd appearance.

Thi would be the best solution as you wouldn't just completely disrespect New Who, but you'd be able to follow the original series properly, and cut out the gender bending, Master/Doctor romance, Doctor/President of earth rubbish.

I'd then follow this Doctor to his 13th life, have a Romana spin off, and when this Doctor reached his 13th life he'd die for good. Then the next reboot would follow the same formula.

Doctor Who 4, would start with the 9th Doctor, but just as before you'd have one of the Doctors from Doctor Who 3 crossover into this universe for a special story (and any New Who Doctors that were still able to do it.)

Then when Doctor Who 4 finished you'd repeat the process and so on and so on.

This would be the best formula for many reasons.

1/ It would free DW from the shackles of the Fitzroy Crowd.

2/ It would allow you to actually end the Doctors story in each sequel. A problem with current Who is that nothing will ever end. Its like Marvel Comics this way. Even if someone writes the best ending for a villain like say Davros, then it will be undone by a later writer. Here that won't be the case. You can actually finish the Master and Davros in Doctor Who 3, and then bring him back in Doctor Who 4 with it being a new version of Davros.

3/ This will prevent any sequel from messing up the original. The thing is we won't know for sure which sequel, if any takes place in the same universe as Classic Who. Maybe New Who, Doctor Who 3, Doctor Who 4 are all alternate universes, along with Shalka?

Viewers would be free to choose which if any was the true sequel, and therefore Classic Who is safe for evermore, whilst writers and fans are free to pick which if any version they need.

Its the best possible formula IMO and is likely to happen as Multiverse stories are becoming popular these days. Into the Spider Verse one an oscar, then there is the upcoming Crisis on Infinite Earths event. IMO that's the only way the franchise will go on.
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Joseph wrote:Well its quite simple for me.

Use the multiverse formula.

Cancel Jodie, wait a few years then bring it back with a new Doctor. Don't reveal which version he is, just have him show up and go on new adventures, and then once the New, New versions has been established, have him casually refer to being on his 9th life.

Just a throwaway remark like.

"All 9 of me have always loved that painting."

Then bam, New Who is gone for good. However I wouldn't completely retcon New Who. Instead I'd reveal that New Who took place in an alternate universe to this version.

I'd do a story where the Daleks from Doctor Who 3's universe, and the New Who universe team up to destroy every universe, forcing the Doctors from both universes to work together. (I'd probably bring back Capaldi for this as he deserves better writing.)

That story could be quite fun. You'd have the New Who bling Dalek models, and Classic era models working together, as well as their servants like Colony Sarf, Ogrons, Robomen, Dalek puppets, and the Classic and New model of Emperor, two versions of Davros (the Remembrance casing one and the New Who one with the metal hand.)

The two Doctors would stop the Daleks and part on good terms, and from then on, you'd have the odd story with both Doctors coming together. You'd also have alternate versions of New Who monsters like the Angels, and even characters. Like for instance in DW 3's universe, Martha could be the head of UNIT.

Also I'd have Captain Jack fall into this universe and make the odd appearance.

Thi would be the best solution as you wouldn't just completely disrespect New Who, but you'd be able to follow the original series properly, and cut out the gender bending, Master/Doctor romance, Doctor/President of earth rubbish.

I'd then follow this Doctor to his 13th life, have a Romana spin off, and when this Doctor reached his 13th life he'd die for good. Then the next reboot would follow the same formula.

Doctor Who 4, would start with the 9th Doctor, but just as before you'd have one of the Doctors from Doctor Who 3 crossover into this universe for a special story (and any New Who Doctors that were still able to do it.)

Then when Doctor Who 4 finished you'd repeat the process and so on and so on.

This would be the best formula for many reasons.

1/ It would free DW from the shackles of the Fitzroy Crowd.

2/ It would allow you to actually end the Doctors story in each sequel. A problem with current Who is that nothing will ever end. Its like Marvel Comics this way. Even if someone writes the best ending for a villain like say Davros, then it will be undone by a later writer. Here that won't be the case. You can actually finish the Master and Davros in Doctor Who 3, and then bring him back in Doctor Who 4 with it being a new version of Davros.

3/ This will prevent any sequel from messing up the original. The thing is we won't know for sure which sequel, if any takes place in the same universe as Classic Who. Maybe New Who, Doctor Who 3, Doctor Who 4 are all alternate universes, along with Shalka?

Viewers would be free to choose which if any was the true sequel, and therefore Classic Who is safe for evermore, whilst writers and fans are free to pick which if any version they need.

Its the best possible formula IMO and is likely to happen as Multiverse stories are becoming popular these days. Into the Spider Verse one an oscar, then there is the upcoming Crisis on Infinite Earths event. IMO that's the only way the franchise will go on.

I think that's brilliant - and has earned it's own place in the poll. Different enough from a subtle retcon of the current canon to warrant it's own vote.

This means that everyone has to vote again (apologies for that - as the poll resets if anything is added), but I couldn't not include it and wanted to get it in while there had only been 10 votes so far.

1/ It would free DW from the shackles of the Fitzroy Crowd.

That would be a joy. They have done such incredible damage. :( :death:
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Can any of the solutions at the top of this thread adequately sort it all out - or would the problems plaguing WHO even follow it into a different Multiverse, continuation or reboot?










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I think that's brilliant - and has earned it's own place in the poll. Different enough from a subtle retcon of the current canon to warrant it's own vote.

This means that everyone has to vote again (apologies for that - as the poll resets if anything is added), but I couldn't not include it and wanted to get it in while there had only been 10 votes so far.
Thanks, the multiverse is something that has always fascinated me. I pinched the formula from DC though it must be said. In the early 60s, DC did a story that established that all of their stories from the mid 30s-50s took place in another universe to those from the mid 50s-then present. They did this to explain away their own continuity blips and different interpretations of famous characters. It was a genius move IMO and really the only one that works for long running franchises like Marvel, DC and DW that have no natural ending in sight.

Even DW can't go on and on in the same universe forever. People will get bored of the same villains getting brought back even after their stories are finished, history being reset so that no development matters, and also eventually you'll have to delete continuity anyway (for instance suppose the franchise is still going in the 22nd century? How are we going to do stories in moden day?) With this in mind what's the point in keeping it in the same universe? Even here the multiverse is better as you dont actually have to delete the previous story.

The only problem with a multiverse is that you don't want to use it too often and chop the franchise up into hundreds of bits. Set a proper limit like "Okay everything in this version takes place in Universe A, everything in this version takes place in Universe B etc."

Ideally DW should have reached the end of the 13th Doctor without any problems, before jumping to another universe. The Fitzroy Crowd however have kind of accelerated the need for the multiverse jump after McCoy or McGann by making their sequel so unfaithful.
Can any of the solutions at the top of this thread adequately sort it all out - or would the problems plaguing WHO even follow it into a different Multiverse, continuation or reboot?
Yes they can as long as we do the following things collectively as a fandom.

1/ STOP BEING SELF LOATHING FANBOYS! God this is the curse of DW, its fans insecurity about the possibility of show not being able to work that causes the show to chase all of these desperate fads, rather than just be itself. That might have worked for a short while in the mid 00s, but in the long run it looks desperate and has dated the new show.

2/ DROP THE DOCTOR WHO IS ALL ABOUT CHANGE MANTRA! This way of thinking has single handedly killed the franchise.

Doctor Who is NOT all about change. It has a flexible formula that can allow it to change if need be, but each change still has to have a justification. Hartnell to Troughton? It was the only way the show could go on. If you adopt the all change is good formula, you don't have to justify anything.

I could literally come along and have the Doctor turn into a giant Pig with machine gun arms and justify it with "Oh you are the type of people who would have objected to Hartnell becoming Troughton, as that's a change and so is this, so this must be great."

Also the Doctor despite his changing nature, still has a core identity, which all of the actors and writers maintained. That identity defines the character. As soon as you tamper with that it isn't the same show anymore.

I'd argue that the DW is all about change rubbish is what killed the show with the mainstream public too. Even casual viewers will want some kind of identity they can latch onto.

Compare the changes in the classic era to those in the new era and you will see the classic era changes were more gradual. They eased viewers into the new Doctors eras and styles.

Hartnell to Troughton, Ben and Polly transition, Troughton has two Dalek stories, a historical in his first year. Its not until Troughton's second series that he severs all ties with Hartnell's era.

Troughton to Pertwee is probably the biggest change as Jamie and Zoe go, but even then the Brig had been set up with Troughton, and the Pertwee era was kind of a sequel for Troughton as Troughton ended with the Doctor being exiled, which was the premise of Pertwee.

Pertwee to Tom is the smoothest transition. Sarah is there for a year with Jon, Unit show up in 4 Tom stories, the Brig's in two, Benton's in three. Its not until mid way through Tom's third year that he finally severs ties with Pertwee.

Tom to Davison? The AInley Master is introduced with Tom, as are Peter Davison's first three companions.

Davison to Colin? Colin's companion is introduced with Peri, even Colin to McCoy, Bonnie Langford bridges the gap.

Look at New Who in contrast. Whilst the transition from Eccelston to Tennant is smooth, the transition from Tennant to Smith isn't. NO Tennant companions carry over, no Tennant story arcs carry over, in fact they are quickly erased or never mentioned again. IMO that put a lot of people off as it was basically a totally different show. We saw the same from Capaldi to Jodie. No companions, no story arcs etc.

Eventually viewers will jump ship.

IMO the problem is that the produces of New Who think they have to make each era a totally different series. The makers of classic who, whilst wanting to put their own spin on it, treated it as one big story. That's why people would stick with it, even when their Doctor left, and IMO why Classic Who smashes New Who on DVD every year.

People who buy say Tom, will want to buy Jon as it will seem like the same show and character. If you buy Tennant however, you might not want to buy Matt as you know that all of the stories and characters vanish as soon as Tennant leaves. (This coupled with the nonsense of making out each Doctor is a totally different character with "I DON'T WANT TO GO" just further splits the show up.)

3/ FOCUS ON SCI FI! No more DW has to be a soap opera in order to succeed. There is an appetite for imaginative fiction which DW should always try and satisfy rather than be the Kitchen sin.

4/ Push for it be produced by an online streaming service. They can put more money into it, focus on making it more sci fi, and even return to the serialised format. As they release whole seasons of something in a year, they can say make a season of 22 episodes, split up into a couple of 4 parters and 1 6 parter.

All of this with the multiverse formula and yes we can get the original show back. Sadly the Fitzroy crowd are probably not going to give it up any time soon. For all their talk of DW is all about change, it seems they won't want to step down and give someone else a chance. :cry:
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A lot of decisions about the show were made from top down onto the Doctor Who Production Office.
You can have all the vision and stories you want, but if the BBC Controller says "You can have resources and make a series BUT your Doctor has to be a woman." You then have to decide to make your show with that requirement or refuse and tour the convention circuit and stay around long enough to help put the chairs away after your initial "So you were going to produce Doctor Who but they insisted on a female lead and you refused?","That's right, yes." "And are there any other production jobs in the pipeline?","Not really, no.". *audience cough

I'd save it by distancing fans but going back to the BBC Controller, what do THEY want to see Doctor Who be? And try and work around that. Can't win. Majority will always vote against your episodes and threads appear on forums asking how can we save the show from my run as Producer!
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Cygnus Prime wrote:I think that's brilliant - and has earned it's own place in the poll. Different enough from a subtle retcon of the current canon to warrant it's own vote.
Yes that was worth voting again, although I went for the subtle retcon again this would also get my vote given more votes. But personally I consider it to be a subsection of the "subtle retcon", so to speak, although the poll now specifically excludes using a multiverse as part of the retcon, so... hmm... we only get one vote, right?

It's obvious that classic and Nu Who took place in different universe(s) to ours, since despite RTD's talk of the human race's ability to forget things, we'd be hard pressed to miss all the alien invasions, the Thames being drained, etc. Hence the existence of our universe could be built into the stories...

Multiverses are closely linked to the idea of changing history, and indeed make a natural way for this to occur without the writer tying themselves in knots trying to explain what just happened, or didn't happen any more. They're also the only logical (and scientifically supported, if you believe David Deutsch) way in which time travel could occur within the existing limits of our knowledge. Hence the TARDIS would naturally move around within the multiverse, and lots of existing stories that contradict one another if you try to put together a single timeline of all-Who would work naturally. Even the Time Meddler would make sense alongside the Aztecs ("you can't change history...") in that he would be trying to create a new timeline that he preferred - for some arcane reason! (See my earlier musings on Time Lords being future humans for more details...)
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LizR wrote: It's obvious that classic and Nu Who took place in different universe(s) to ours, since despite RTD's talk of the human race's ability to forget things, we'd be hard pressed to miss all the alien invasions, the Thames being drained, etc. Hence the existence of our universe could be built into the stories...

This has prompted a new thread, Liz!

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7448


And yes, it seems blatantly obvious to me that the two shows are irreconcilable now, with an alternative universe being the common sense explanation. Officially it's all set in the same universe though. :?

Tragically. :( :death:
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Joseph wrote:Look at New Who in contrast. Whilst the transition from Eccelston to Tennant is smooth, the transition from Tennant to Smith isn't. NO Tennant companions carry over, no Tennant story arcs carry over, in fact they are quickly erased or never mentioned again. IMO that put a lot of people off as it was basically a totally different show. We saw the same from Capaldi to Jodie. No companions, no story arcs etc ... the problem is that the produces of New Who think they have to make each era a totally different series. The makers of classic who, whilst wanting to put their own spin on it, treated it as one big story. That's why people would stick with it, even when their Doctor left, and IMO why Classic Who smashes New Who on DVD every year.
Hmmm, those changes occurred with the inception of a new show runner. Ego much?
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As part of any reparation, should the BBC be obliged to admit that "mistakes have been made" - and apologise publicly for the "current state of the show".

Would they ever be able to bring themselves to do that?




And do they actually have anything to apologise for?





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Find a shedload of missing episodes and we’ll all be distracted watching them to give a toss.
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Servorobot wrote:Find a shedload of missing episodes and we’ll all be distracted watching them to give a toss.

:lol:


I would trade the whole of New Who for five minutes of THE MYTH MAKERS or SPACE PIRATES. :lol:
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