THE TIMELESS CHILD REVELATIONS: Do You Accept Them as Canon?

THE TIMELESS CHILD REVELATIONS: Do You Accept Them as Canon?

YES: I have no problem with these additions to the lore.
8
12%
NO CHANCE: Never will I accept this!
32
48%
MAYBE: I'm still on the fence. Let's see what future episodes do with this!
3
5%
WHO CARES: I am done with New Who
23
35%
 
Total votes: 66
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Before the revelations we asked......

How Do You Feel About the "Timeless Child" Arc?

OUR SURVEY SAID:

Intrigued/Excited: 6

Bored/indifferent: 9

Potentially worried/annoyed as to where this arc could be heading!!: 14


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The Timeless Child Revelations:


Now, as the dust starts to settle......

Can you accept these revelations as show-canon?




________________________________________________________________________________________________



[Matrix]

MASTER: Welcome, Doctor. Are you suffering comfortably? Then I'll begin.

Once upon a time... No. Once upon several times, before the Time Lords, before everything we know, there was an explorer. Her name was Tecteun, from a little-regarded, sparsely populated planet called Gallifrey. Tecteun was the first of Gallifrey's indigenous race, the Shobogans, to develop space travel. Dangerous, unsophisticated space travel. She took risks to explore the worlds and galaxies beyond her home.

And it was on one of these distant, deserted worlds on the far edge of another galaxy she found something... impossible. A gateway. A boundary into another unknown dimension or universe. Tecteun glimpsed the infinite through that gateway. And beneath the monument, she found... a child. Abandoned. Alone. Thrown through, seemingly, from the other unknown realm.

Tecteun had a choice to make. Abandon or save the child? She chose to rescue the foundling and adopt this refugee from another realm as her own.
Together they explored the universe. The child grew older, and finally Tecteun returned to Gallifrey with her new child.

Like any parent, Tecteun wanted to understand her child. She searched for clues as to the child's identity. Where she might be from, what species she could be. But the child would not yield any secrets Tecteun could understand. The child remained a mystery, until playing with a friend, like any other child, there was an accident. A catastrophe...

(The child falls off a cliff.)

MASTER: ..for Tecteun, for the child she'd saved, now lost to her. Or so she thought. The child regenerated. The first regeneration of any person on the planet of Gallifrey.

Now, having seen her adopted child regenerate her body, Tecteun, a scientist and explorer, had a new landscape to explore. She dedicated her life to studying her child. Detailed every fragment of genetic material. It took her years. Several of the child's regenerations.

Tecteun grew older. Her desire to understand became an obsession. She worked tirelessly, endlessly, furiously. She had to crack this code to understand regeneration. And finally, she did. And to prove herself right, she took the ultimate risk. Tested the theory on herself. Put her own life on the line. Spliced into herself the genetic ability to regenerate.

I didn't know any of this. Did you know any of this? Nearly there.

The planet of Gallifrey evolved. Shobogans grew in knowledge and ability. They built themselves the Citadel. They discovered the ability to travel through Time as well as space. With Tecteun, they became a self-appointed ruling elite. And Tecteun proposed that they gene-splice the ability to regenerate into future generations of Citadel dwellers. It would become the genetic inheritance of them and their descendants. But he would restrict the regenerative process to a maximum of twelve times.

The timeless child became the base genetic code for all Gallifreyans within the Citadel. The civilisation which renamed themselves, with characteristic pomposity, Time Lords. The foundling had become the founder.

The rest, as they say, is history.

DOCTOR: What happened to the child?

(The Master laughs.)

DOCTOR: What? What's so funny? What happened to the child?

MASTER: Oh Doctor, really? Haven't you worked this out yet? The child is you. You are the timeless child.

DOCTOR: No. No, I'm not.

MASTER: You always have been.

DOCTOR: I can't be.






See also......

Does Doctor Who Need Season-Long Story Arcs?:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7517


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The previous mention of "The Timeless Child" in Series 11......

.... at about 2:35


REMNANT: You lead but you're scared, too, for yourself and for others.

DOCTOR: Yeah, well, who isn't?

REMNANT: Afraid of your own newness. We see deeper, though, further back. The Timeless Child.

DOCTOR: What did you just say?

REMNANT: She doesn't know.

DOCTOR: What are you talking about? What can you see?

REMNANT: We see what's hidden even from yourself, the outcast, abandoned and unknown.

DOCTOR: Get out of my head.

REMNANT: Now we crush those fears from you.




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The BBC's very own RADIO TIMES have started "speculating"........


https://www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2020 ... ess-child/


Could Doctor Who’s Timeless Child arc reveal a dark secret about regeneration?
The Time Lords had a dark secret – but could “The Timeless Child” relate to their immortality?



For over 50 years the concept of regeneration (though not referred to as such immediately) has been a central conceit of Doctor Who, with the BBC sci-fi series able to regularly recast its lead role thanks to the in-universe explanation that the Doctor can completely change his or her body when mortally wounded.

This has meant the series gets a regular refresh and soft reboot with every casting change, and allows it to continue beyond the limits of specific actors – but what if all that’s about to change? What if the dark truth recently hinted at about the Doctor’s species (the Time Lords, designation fans) actually relates to their most significant ability?

In other words, what if Doctor Who is about to undo everything we know about regeneration?


This idea has been circling around in our heads ever since Doctor Who series 12’s second episode (Spyfall – Part Two), which reignited the mystery of the “Timeless Child” (a mysterious figure with some connection to the Doctor previously teased in 2018) after Sacha Dhawan’s Master revealed that this unknown figure concealed some rot at the heart of Gallifreyan society.

“They lied to us – the founding fathers of Gallifrey,” the Master said.

“Everything they told us was a lie. We’re not who we think, you or I, the whole existence of our species built on the lie of the Timeless Child.”

Afterwards, we wrote a few theories as to who or what the Timeless Child could be referring to, but one reader pointed out something we’d missed – what if the Timeless Child refers to some sort of immortal being, given her name? And if that is the case, maybe the dark secret at the heart of Gallifrey is that the Time Lords didn’t invent the concept of regeneration – they stole it from this being, imprisoning her and harvesting her innate ability to rejuvenate themselves and their species.


Just think about it. Regeneration is one of the most widely-known, mainstream concepts in Doctor Who. It’s not some arcane bit of canon, or a nerdy Easter Egg – everyone knows that the Doctor changes form, even if they don’t watch the show. So what would make a bigger impact than to somehow undermine this, and reveal to the Doctor that she’s been unknowingly complicit in some atrocity all this time?

The Time Lords’ ability to regenerate has been an essential part of their success as a race, so it definitely qualifies as something that sits at “the whole existence” of the species (as the Master puts it). And it’s also something we still don’t know everything about. We know that there’s a 13-regeneration limit, and that the Time Lords could bestow a “new” regeneration cycle (as happens in 2013’s The Time of the Doctor) when this ran out, but not much about how regeneration began.


It’s been suggested and rumoured that it could have something to do with the “Rassilon Imprimatur” created to bond Time Lords to TARDISes and allow them to withstand the pressures of time travel, or a biological process Time Lord founder Rassilon created separately. Or maybe (as said in 2011’s A Good Man Goes to War) it’s something to do with exposure to the Time Vortex itself, but it’s never really been explained explicitly or definitively how the ability was created. And based on what the Master says, any explanation we’ve heard before could just be a lie anyway.

And what else about the Time Lords would be well known enough to a general audience (the people that head writer Chris Chibnall has been vocal about trying to reach) for a twist to be shocking? ‘Oh, it wasn’t Omega and Rassilon who were the founding fathers after all?’ – most people wouldn’t even know what you were talking about!

And this sort of idea has some history in classic sci-fi as well. Legendary author Ursula K. Le Guin wrote a short story published in 1973 called The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas which dealt with similar themes, imagining a truly utopian society that could only function on one proviso – the perpetual filth and misery one unfortunate child is forced to endure. This sort of harrowing moral dilemma is vintage Doctor Who, and it’d be great to see Jodie Whittaker grappling with the idea of her complicity in this scheme.

Of course, it could be slightly self-defeating to make Doctor Who’s best selling point a cruel atrocity, but we’re sure some sci-fi nonsense could be invented to allow the Doctor to still regenerate. And the idea could work almost as well if the story was tweaked slightly anyway.


Maybe the Timeless Child gets her name from some connection to time travel instead, and it’s that ability that the Time Lords have harvested from her for their TARDISes. Either way the idea of the lofty Time Lords harbouring such a grubby little secret would be a hard cross for the Doctor to bear – assuming, of course that on some level she doesn’t know it already.

After all, the Master notes that the truth is “buried deep in all our memories and our identity,” and the Doctor appears to have a vision of the Timeless Child towards the end of his speech. Maybe on some level, she always knew, and that’s why she instinctively felt the need to run away from Gallifrey in the first place, stealing her TARDIS to escape some shame she couldn’t quite feel.

That’s what happens in le Guin’s story, after all – hence the title, referring to those who abandoned the perfect society of Omelas once they learned its price.

“The place they go towards is a place even less imaginable to most of us than the city of happiness,” the narrator says at the end of the story.

“I cannot describe it at all. It is possible it does not exist. But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.”

Of course, it’s possible that we’re completely off-base here, and the Timeless Child refers to some completely separate twist of Who lore that will be revealed in the coming episodes of series 12, leaving regeneration and TARDISes both safe from scrutiny.

But for our part, we can’t help but think back to something else the Master said in the series’ first episode, and how much it applies to the fans watching at home as well as the Doctor.

“Everything that you think you know… is a lie.”



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Potentially very angry? :lol: :lol:

Some of the new who sh*t has annoyed me a bit, but not usually before it happens! :lol:
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Digital Spy have been nattering too..... :?


https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/a30389493 ... child-lie/


Doctor Who just changed everything we thought we knew about the show

There's no going back from this.


Note: This article contains major spoilers for the second episode of Doctor Who season 12.

While Doctor Who's eleventh (new) season mixed things up by introducing a female lead, few could have predicted that season twelve would change the show in an even more fundamental way.

Even if we did have a TARDIS to hand, there would still be no going back from what we just learned in the second half of Spyfall — and it's got everything to do with what The Master revealed in the final moments of season twelve's opening two-parter:

"Everything you think you know is a lie."

These game-changing words previously made us wonder if this "lie" was linked somehow to The Timeless Child mystery set up last season... and this week's episode confirmed that to be true in even more startling ways than we could have predicted.

The big moment arrives towards the end of Spyfall part two after The Master reveals that the planet Gallifrey has been "pulverised, burned, nuked... all of the above." Upon regaining access to her TARDIS, the Doctor visits her home world to see if her old friend was telling the truth, and unfortunately, he was.

Gallifrey is now essentially a burning pile of rubble, and there's no sign of life anywhere.

Devastated, the Doctor starts to head back home, but she's interrupted by a hologram left by The Master that's automatically set off by her presence.

In the recording, her arch-nemesis reveals that he's the one who destroyed the Time Lords, and the reason why must have come as a surprise to even the most hardcore Whovian:

"I had to make them pay for what I discovered. They lied to us. The founding fathers of Gallifrey. Everything we were told is a lie. We are not who we think, you or I."

The specifics of the Doctor's past and her time on Gallifrey are somewhat shrouded in mystery, but still, the news leaves her visibly shaken, much like viewers must have felt watching this unfold back home.

But wait, there's more! The Master then goes on to explain the "lie" he referred to in the season-twelve premiere:

"The whole existence of our species is built on the lie of The Timeless Child. Do you see it? It's deep in all of our memories, our identity."

As The Master says these words, the Doctor flashes back to when clairvoyant monsters called The Remnants first freaked her out with mention of The Timeless Child last season.

Those creatures referred to the Child as something "hidden, even from yourself," and The Master echoes that idea here by implying that this mystery has been buried in the Doctor's subconscious all along.

At this point, The Master could have revealed at least a tad more information. After all, we've been waiting a long time to hear more on The Timeless Child, but as we all know by now, he's not exactly an agreeable sort, is he?

"I'd tell you more, but why would I make it easy for you? It wasn't for me."

After briefly dangling this enigma before us without any kind of resolution last season, showrunner Chris Chibnall has now made The Timeless Child a central component of the show.

But who is The Timeless Child? Could it be one of the two remaining Time Lords?

With every other member of her race now dead – not timelocked, not in a pocket universe, dead – it won't be easy for The Doctor to find the answers that she seeks. Everything that she's ever been told is a lie, which means that everything we've been told is a lie too, changing everything we thought we knew about the good Doctor and therefore the show as a whole.



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I wish I could instinctively trust the New Who Showrunners, but - as a breed - they can't seem to leave the foundations and roots of the Classic Show alone; illuminating things that were perhaps best left mysterious - or sometimes showing old facts in a new, mundane, inane or downright silly light - and thus arguably undermining some of the inbuilt magic of the show. :(





Doctor Who | Listen - Clara meets The Doctor as a Child





The First Doctor meets Clara Oswald






... and now - with this new arc...........

REMNANT: We see deeper, though, further back.
MASTER: .... the founding fathers of Gallifrey

What new (perhaps controversial) light will they shed on the foundations of the show that will overwrite
"Everything we were told"
as
"a lie"
by all of those Classic Who writers?

If this arc were something to deal with in the the Doctor's present - or even a threat of the future, that would be fine, but no, it is reaching even further back than the two clips above, telling us yet more pre-televised stuff that the Classic Who writers clearly overlooked. :(

I would prefer it if they moved forward, instead of going back and potentially over-writing established canon that was set in place by arguably more genuinely talented(?) and entertaining writers decades ago.

It seems to be the curse of fan-writers that they do this sort of thing, even at the end of the Classic Who stretch when fan-writers were eager to go along with the Cartmel Malarky plan in making the Doctor "More than just a Time Lord".


Just wish I could trust these fan-writers, like I said. :(


See also......

The Classic Who Writers (and Their Legacy):

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7484

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shuzbot wrote:Potentially very angry? :lol: :lol:

Some of the new who sh*t has annoyed me a bit, but not usually before it happens! :lol:
:lol:


Have toned it down to "(potentially) worried/annoyed". :lol:
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The 5 Best Story Arcs in DOCTOR WHO

Modern, classic, comic and audio.

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They lied to us, the founding fathers of Gallifrey.

Everything we were told was a lie.

We are not who we think, you or I.

The whole existence of our species built on the lie of the Timeless Child
.


___________________________________________________________________________________________________



just did a search for "Founding fathers of Gallifrey", which yielded this old chestnut.......


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Other_(Doctor_Who)
“ ... Omega and Rassilon were the founding fathers of the 'Time Lord era' of Gallifrey. They towered above the Time Lords who followed. They were demigods. And Ace's nifty dialogue "And..." coupled with the Doctor's neatly evasive response, are a subtle attempt to say that there was a third presence there in the shadowy days of Gallifrey's creation. In other words, the Doctor was also there. So he's more than a Time Lord. He's one of these half-glimpsed demigods.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________


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Doctor Two & Three Confront Omega:





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Fan Theory: The Doctor Is A Reincarnation Of The Other






___________________________________________________________________________________________________



Could it be that some variant of Cartmel's Master Plan is about to be revived in the modern show?

Could we about, at long last, to see Omega again (even if only in flashbacks)?

Will the Doctor finally be confirmed to be "The Other"?
Eventually, most of the details were revealed in the last Seventh Doctor New Adventure, Lungbarrow by Marc Platt. In the afterword, Platt discusses the Other, stating that he "may not even be Gallifreyan himself" and writing: “ He is an éminence grise; the power lurking behind the throne, like a skulking, limelight-shunning version of Alastair Campbell or Peter Mandelson, who manipulates the emergence of Gallifrey as one of the supreme seats of power in the Universe. But Blair and Campbell/Mandelson are puny substitutes for Rassilon and the Other. Only Thatcher (all squawks and eyepatch), from whose evil Pythian empire a new world is being built, is worthy of comparison.[3] ” A line in Lungbarrow says that the Other came to Rassilon "on approval", implying that Rassilon "acquired" him "in some sort of pact with God knows what". At the end of the novel, the Doctor learns that Leela is pregnant with Andred's child, and asks her to name it after him; Platt explained that this was meant to suggest a time loop in which the hybrid child goes on to become the Other, explaining the Doctor's half-human parentage in the 1996 TV film.
Image


https://archive.org/details/DoctorWhoLungbarrow





___________________________________________________________________________________________________




Or could the real Timeless Child saga be something more out of left field - and far less predictable?



Steven Moffat on the Cartmel Masterplan


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Antimatter monsters, the founding fathers of Gallifrey, The Master was called 'O' - Omega is deffo combining back :D
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I wish he’d have just told her and been done with it, like rohm-Dutt over Romana’s plight in Power of Kroll I’m indifferent.
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shuzbot wrote:Potentially very angry? :lol: :lol:

Some of the new who sh*t has annoyed me a bit, but not usually before it happens! :lol:
I suspect that we'll end up either underwhelmed, puzzled or vaguely irritated. Or all three.

Although if it stops Clara Bloody Oswald being the be-all and end-all, that would be something.

Mind you, the stuff Moff did probably underminded the "half human" bit of classical canon (assuming we believe that ever was), which IMHO is a good thing. Either wholly human (as in "future, evolved version of human") or 100% alien, please!
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LizR wrote:
I suspect that we'll end up either underwhelmed, puzzled or vaguely irritated. Or all three.

So true.

That's arguably been the pattern all along hasn't it? I remember when BAD WOLF was finally revealed.

There was me, expecting the Master, Davros or at least some kind of horrifyingly familiar mind behind it and at the root of all the strange goings on, only to find it was.....blimmin' Rose - and that a kiss saved everyone and everything - except for Ecclestone, who had decided he wanted out of this nonsense. I can't think of a single story arc that has paid off in terms of worthy drama. And I am still not sure who the Hybrid is. :? The Pandorica was going - in my mind - to contain some kind of horrifyingly familiar foe inside it, but it just turned out to be a box prison that the Doctor could never escape from, except that he just..... did. Easily. :? One of the regulars shot dead on a beach: "We mean it this time!" screamed the different variant covers on that month's Doctor Who magazine, each depicting one of the regulars, that were cashing in on this arc. Except it was the worst choice of regular to shoot and fizzled out into a silly explanation.

This is a showrunner who has never done an arc for us, of course - and he may surprise us yet.

Am just not expecting him to. :(
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shuzbot wrote:Antimatter monsters, the founding fathers of Gallifrey, The Master was called 'O' - Omega is deffo combining back :D


ImageImage



Could the Timeless Child arc really be connected to the above two books? :?

Must admit, I have started wondering if the glowing white silhouette aliens were some version of the Gelgards/Ergon and the "forest" Jodie found herself in was Omega's anti-matter domain? (Like the Gelgards, if you touch them, you get zapped to their dimension.)

(I had been hoping that it was the Land of Fiction (with much thinner trees) up to that point. :lol:

But yeah, I suspect that the reveal of the arc will bring back nothing charming or fan-pleasing from the past of the show and will be mundane and disappointing. As usual.


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LizR wrote:
shuzbot wrote:Potentially very angry? :lol: :lol:

Some of the new who sh*t has annoyed me a bit, but not usually before it happens! :lol:
I suspect that we'll end up either underwhelmed, puzzled or vaguely irritated. Or all three.

Although if it stops Clara Bloody Oswald being the be-all and end-all, that would be something.

Mind you, the stuff Moff did probably underminded the "half human" bit of classical canon (assuming we believe that ever was), which IMHO is a good thing. Either wholly human (as in "future, evolved version of human") or 100% alien, please!


Underwhelmed seems the likely scenario as far as I’m concerned, if it’s in keeping with Chibber’s reign. Either that or “meh.”

Some people may get irritated but they really should stay away, it’s bad for their health! :D
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In light of the Timeless Child arc, someone has made a video about ......


Early Gallifrey: The Formation of the Time Lords

The early universe began off the back of another.
The Scrolls of Rassilon tell of the formation of the Time Lords and how they went from a ruled over people under the Pythians to the Lords of Time.
But can the be trusted and how exactly did Gallifrey impact the beginning of the universe?
Let's see how it happened from the Time Lord's own archives. If they can be trusted.

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I guess we can chuck Alan Moore's rendition of the Time Lord's beginnings out of the window as well... :lol:


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Read the full "STAR DEATH" comic strip here:


http://waveyourgeekflag.blogspot.com/20 ... death.html


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See also......

Alan Moore:

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=5151

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Jodie on the TC arc.........


https://metro.co.uk/2020/01/12/jodie-wh ... -12043492/

But what does that exactly mean for the lore of the show, and what does that mean going forward?

Speaking of the plot development, Jodie said that fans need to buckle in – because answers are going to take a while to actually get here.

‘These things that maybe feel as if they were in an episode of season 11 and then forgotten about, weren’t. And I think you don’t necessarily always rush to get the answer,’ she said on a panel at New York’s Paley Centre (via Cultbox).

But she was quick to add:

‘So it’s not to say that you won’t discover something. You’re not going to be denied. But the beauty of this show is that it goes on and on and on. ‘So maybe some things, a few, are answered and maybe some things aren’t and I think that’s why you’ve got to keep watching.’

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Cygnus Prime wrote:
JODIE: So it’s not to say that you won’t discover something. You’re not going to be denied. But the beauty of this show is that it goes on and on and on. ‘So maybe some things, a few, are answered and maybe some things aren’t and I think that’s why you’ve got to keep watching.

Am not sure, but is she saying that this Timeless Child arc is going to stagger on to Series 13? :?


See also......

Series 13: What Would You Like to See?:

viewtopic.php?f=98&t=7520

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Strange arc, not featured in the last three episodes.
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