THE MEDDLING MONK/WAR CHIEF: Are They Actually The Master?

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Are the Meddling Monk and/or The War Chief Actually The Master?!?

YES: But only the MONK is probably The Master
1
4%
YES: But only the WAR CHIEF is probably The Master
3
12%
YES: They are BOTH probably The Master!
2
8%
NO: NEITHER of them are.
19
73%
WHO KNOWS!: But it's fun to speculate! : )
1
4%
 
Total votes: 26
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Tubby Rawlins wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 3:52 pm
This is fully canonical as far as I am concerned:

I kept waiting for the Ice Warriors to turn up carrying one of those seed pods of theirs. :lol:
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I find myself willing to believe that the War Chief is an earlier incarnation of The Master. The personality and interaction are far more similar, the leveraging of another civilization to do his bidding, and the leveraging of technology to make it happen. There's also the angle of him using his experience with hypnosis in conditioning the soldiers. Or maybe it's just the beard.

Somehow I can't bring myself to see the Monk as The Master. He's almost playful and there's a bumbling aspect about him. Also, although he's willing to tinker with the timeline he doesn't seem to display the narcissism, disregard for life, and will to dominate. None of that says "The Master" to me.
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I agree with Matt that the Monk isn't anything like the Master (either the cool, scheming, icy polite version of classic Who, or the daft, prancing, mad-as-a-hatter version from New Who). He wants to alter Earth history for his own, perhaps altruistic reasons. I assume this story was written when it was still thought the Doctor may have come from Earth's future. Otherwise, the Monk's desire to change Earth history, in particular - as well as the Doctor's insistence that no-one should do so - both seem slightly strange, if to them it's just another planet amongst millions.

Actually, the Master's desire to take over Earth is equally strange (as is the War Chief's usage of armies from Earth, come to think of it) unless they all have some special interest in this particular little planet. Assuming - as I've been told in the strongest possible terms - the Master doesn't have any "foe-yay" with the Doctor, then his interest in Earth would make most sense if he and the Doctor come from Earth's future (as I think the writers originally intended).
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LizR wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:33 am
Actually, the Master's desire to take over Earth is equally strange (as is the War Chief's usage of armies from Earth, come to think of it) unless they all have some special interest in this particular little planet.
From the scene with the Time Lord in Terror of the Autons, I always drew the impression that the Master in particular wanted to conquer Earth initially because that's where the Doctor just happened to be hanging out. It only became personal later on as he kept being thwarted.

Regarding the War Chief, we really don't get a lot of detail on what's going on outside the Zones. Said Zones don't seem to be large enough to account for a continent let alone a planet so it's not too much of a stretch to imagine there could be other sets of Zones in relative isolation; from the way the control room is set up it seems a reasonable inference that the SIDRATs could be tethered to each Zone. That opens up some interesting possibilities...
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WildcatMatt wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:54 am
From the scene with the Time Lord in Terror of the Autons, I always drew the impression that the Master in particular wanted to conquer Earth initially because that's where the Doctor just happened to be hanging out. It only became personal later on as he kept being thwarted.
Why would that matter to him, unless it's foe-yay? He's basically risking his life over and over for no reward EXCEPT to taunt, attract the attention of, and otherwise interact with the Doctor. Which I've been reliably informed can't possibly be the case.
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LizR wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:51 am
WildcatMatt wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:54 am
From the scene with the Time Lord in Terror of the Autons, I always drew the impression that the Master in particular wanted to conquer Earth initially because that's where the Doctor just happened to be hanging out. It only became personal later on as he kept being thwarted.
Why would that matter to him, unless it's foe-yay? He's basically risking his life over and over for no reward EXCEPT to taunt, attract the attention of, and otherwise interact with the Doctor. Which I've been reliably informed can't possibly be the case.
In Terror of the Autons, a Time Lord appears to gain revenge on the Doctor. As the Doctor is exiled on Earth, that's where the Master shows up. It is remarked upon that they have met up not long before where the Doctor was the one who ruined the Master's scheme. And the Doctor states that the Master was using hypnotism then too, but some people were able to resist it.

if we take the novelisations into account we get:

There were tens of thousands of humans from the planet Earth, stranded on another planet where they thought they were re-fighting all the wars of Earth’s terrible history.

Well, the Doctor had done the best he could to stop it all. But in the end [the Time Lords] had to step in and get all those poor soldiers back to Earth, and to all the right times in Earth’s history.’

If ever [the Master] were caught, his fate would I be far worse than the Doctor’s exile. Once captured by the Time Lords, the Master’s life-stream would be thrown into reverse. Not only would he no longer exist, he would never have existed. It was the severest punishment in the Time Lords’ power.

The above three are quotes from the novelisations, only with "we" changed to "the Time Lords" etc.

If anyone wants to know "Why does Delgado appear in Terror of the Autons?" then the simplest answer is "Watch The War Games".

But then the Virgin new Adventures crowd said that "there is nothing to connect the two characters". Which means that Delgado looks rather odd just appearing out of nowhere with some sort of personal issue against the Doctor....
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Oh, and another bit of oddity is the way some people think that Peter Butterworth's character is actually called "The Meddling Monk" the way William Hartnell's character is called "The Doctor".

'How do you do? I'm the Meddling Monk.'

That's what the people at Big Finish seem to think anyway. We need a proper name for the character.

I suggest "Doctor What".
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Tubby Rawlins wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:46 pm
Oh, and another bit of oddity is the way some people think that Peter Butterworth's character is actually called "The Meddling Monk" the way William Hartnell's character is called "The Doctor".

'How do you do? I'm the Meddling Monk.'

That's what the people at Big Finish seem to think anyway. We need a proper name for the character.

I suggest "Doctor What".

Paul Cornell (there's that name again :death: ) seems to think he is called "Mortimus". Or at least he did in this "classic" novel. :?


https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/No_Future_(novel)


Publisher's summary

This time, anarchy's real. There are power cuts and Wilson's resignation, a great upheaval of unease. But now there's real fear too. Real panic. And that's not how it's supposed to be.

Somebody has been toying with the Seventh Doctor's past, testing him, threatening him, leading him on a chase that has brought the TARDIS to London in 1976 -- where reality has been altered once again.

Black Star terrorists foment riots in the streets. The Queen barely escapes assassination. A fearful tension is rising. Something is going to happen. Something bad.

Meanwhile, Benny's the lead singer in a punk band. Ace can't talk to her or the Doctor without an argument starting, so she's made murderous plans of her own. The Doctor's alone — he doesn't know who his enemy is, and even the Brigadier has disowned him.

As usual, it's up to the Doctor to protect the world. And he can't even protect himself.



Image
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Related Thread......

THAT TIME MARINUS BECAME MONDAS: Do We Ignore Printed Continuity? (Comics/Novels, Etc.):

https://www.planetmondas.com/forum/view ... =16&t=8200
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Tubby Rawlins wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:46 pm
Oh, and another bit of oddity is the way some people think that Peter Butterworth's character is actually called "The Meddling Monk" the way William Hartnell's character is called "The Doctor".

'How do you do? I'm the Meddling Monk.'

That's what the people at Big Finish seem to think anyway. We need a proper name for the character.

I suggest "Doctor What".
How about Roger? ;)
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Tubby Rawlins wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:46 pm
Oh, and another bit of oddity is the way some people think that Peter Butterworth's character is actually called "The Meddling Monk" the way William Hartnell's character is called "The Doctor".

'How do you do? I'm the Meddling Monk.'

That's what the people at Big Finish seem to think anyway. We need a proper name for the character.

I suggest "Doctor What".
In my opinion, and in the tradition of the Doctor, the Master, the Rani, the War Chief - er, Romana, etc, his "name" is "the Monk" - his actual Gallifreyan name being a secret he keeps to himself.

At least that's what I've always called him. ("The Meddling Monk" is no doubt how the Doctor would describe him, but it isn't actually his name.)
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Tubby Rawlins wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:43 pm
In Terror of the Autons, a Time Lord appears to gain revenge on the Doctor. As the Doctor is exiled on Earth, that's where the Master shows up. It is remarked upon that they have met up not long before where the Doctor was the one who ruined the Master's scheme. And the Doctor states that the Master was using hypnotism then too, but some people were able to resist it.
That's assuming he's the War Chief, which makes perfect sense to me, so that's another good theory.
Tubby Rawlins wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:43 pm
if we take the novelisations into account we get:
I'm afraid I haven't read those and am only going by what's been on screen.
Tubby Rawlins wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:43 pm
But then the Virgin new Adventures crowd said that "there is nothing to connect the two characters". Which means that Delgado looks rather odd just appearing out of nowhere with some sort of personal issue against the Doctor....
Which brings us back to my original suggestion (assuming he isn't the War Chief, a suggestion I'm happy to entertain). The Master treats the Doctor with a lot of respect, admiration and even somewhat twisted affection. He also gives him the opportunity to rule the Universe together with him. If that isn't foe-yay, I'm Marie of Roumania.
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LizR wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:06 am
Tubby Rawlins wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:46 pm
Oh, and another bit of oddity is the way some people think that Peter Butterworth's character is actually called "The Meddling Monk" the way William Hartnell's character is called "The Doctor".

'How do you do? I'm the Meddling Monk.'

That's what the people at Big Finish seem to think anyway. We need a proper name for the character.

I suggest "Doctor What".
In my opinion, and in the tradition of the Doctor, the Master, the Rani, the War Chief - er, Romana, etc, his "name" is "the Monk" - his actual Gallifreyan name being a secret he keeps to himself.

At least that's what I've always called him. ("The Meddling Monk" is no doubt how the Doctor would describe him, but it isn't actually his name.)
As far as I'm concerned that's not the case at all. The Doctor introduces himself as "the Doctor". The Master introduces himself as "the Master". Butterworth's character never did so as "the Monk".

It's stating the bleeding obvious that he's a time traveller from the future who wants to alter the course of English History. He uses an abandoned monastery as his base of operations. So, to blend in, he disguises himself as a monk. He obviously wouldn't dress as a monk in any of his other schemes(Stonehenge, Leonardo Da Vinci, the London Bank etc.). As his name is never revealed, and as he's dressed as a monk, people call him "the monk" as shorthand. As it's quicker and easier to say "the monk" than it is to say that time traveller who disguised himself as a monk in The Time Meddler".

From Episode 3
MONK: The door. I must go.
DOCTOR: Just leave that, shall we?
MONK: But if I don't go, they'll get suspicious.
DOCTOR: Then we'll both go. I'll open the door, then I can keep an eye on you.
MONK: You open the door? No, Doctor, that's not a very good idea.
DOCTOR: Oh, isn't it? Why not?
MONK: Because you're not wearing the right sort of clothes.
DOCTOR: Oh, yes, I see, I see. First, you want to open the door, then you want the chance to reverse the position with the help of whoever it is outside? Secondly, you want to get me into a monk's habit so that whoever that is, would recognise me as an imposter.
MONK: Dear me, dear me, what an untrusting nature you have, my son.
DOCTOR: Yes, and you can drop the monk's act.
MONK: I'm only trying to help. Whoever it is, it's probably as traveller knocking for shelter. Who else could it be? Doctor, I must remind you this is a monastery, a place of refuge, sanctuary.
DOCTOR: Yes, very well, if you have another cloak with the same type of cowl? Proceed.
MONK: Of course.
DOCTOR: And remember, no more monkery!
The idea that he would return in subsequent stories, and actually calling himself "the Monk" blows my mind. I just don't get that at all. Making him a regenerated Time Lord whose timeline intersects with the Time War, played by another actor, and calling himself "the Meddling Monk" goes beyond the limits of sanity.

That's part of why I can't stand the current Big Finish output. That sort of "reasoning". "Oh, well Peter Butterworth played a character credited as 'the monk' in 1965. So let's get some modern-day comedian to play another incarnation 50 years later, and call HIM "the Meddling Monk too"!" Sorry, but just No.
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LizR wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:18 am
Tubby Rawlins wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:43 pm
In Terror of the Autons, a Time Lord appears to gain revenge on the Doctor. As the Doctor is exiled on Earth, that's where the Master shows up. It is remarked upon that they have met up not long before where the Doctor was the one who ruined the Master's scheme. And the Doctor states that the Master was using hypnotism then too, but some people were able to resist it.
That's assuming he's the War Chief, which makes perfect sense to me, so that's another good theory.
Tubby Rawlins wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:43 pm
if we take the novelisations into account we get:
I'm afraid I haven't read those and am only going by what's been on screen.
Tubby Rawlins wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:43 pm
But then the Virgin new Adventures crowd said that "there is nothing to connect the two characters". Which means that Delgado looks rather odd just appearing out of nowhere with some sort of personal issue against the Doctor....
Which brings us back to my original suggestion (assuming he isn't the War Chief, a suggestion I'm happy to entertain). The Master treats the Doctor with a lot of respect, admiration and even somewhat twisted affection. He also gives him the opportunity to rule the Universe together with him. If that isn't foe-yay, I'm Marie of Roumania.
The reason I take it as read that the Master is the War Chief is because those novelisations were written by Terrance Dicks and Malcolm Hulke, the two men who wrote The War Games.

Plus, I prefer the Doctor having ONE evil shadow version of him than having TWO.

"The Master is the evil equal and opposite of the Doctor.

Oh, and so is the War Chief!"

As for the "foe-yay", I never saw that. And I sincerely doubt it's what anyone set out to do.

Apparently on the Planet of the Spiders DVD special features there's an old interview with Jon Pertwee where he said he believed the Doctor and the Master were brothers. While a "current"(at time of release) interview with Barry Letts has the Producer saying the same thing.

While the Planet of Fire DVD has Peter Davison stating that JNT believed that the Doctor and the Master are brothers.

The (never used) Leekley Bible has the Doctor and Master as brothers. Had the McGann TV Movie led to a full series this could very easily have made it onto the screen.
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Sorry, everytime I see that War Chief regenerating into Delgado thing I just keep seeing Fewsham’s mug.
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Tubby Rawlins wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:12 am

The idea that he would return in subsequent stories, and actually calling himself "the Monk" blows my mind. I just don't get that at all. Making him a regenerated Time Lord whose timeline intersects with the Time War, played by another actor, and calling himself "the Meddling Monk" goes beyond the limits of sanity.

That's part of why I can't stand the current Big Finish output. That sort of "reasoning". "Oh, well Peter Butterworth played a character credited as 'the monk' in 1965. So let's get some modern-day comedian to play another incarnation 50 years later, and call HIM "the Meddling Monk too"!" Sorry, but just No.
That's fair enough. I thought he dressed the same in DMP where he wasn't blending in, but my memory may have cheated. Hence my idea that this was his "thing" - maybe because of a desire to play God? But assuming he's just incidentally taking on that role to blend in, then, as a Time lord, he might have a name like The Adjuster or something a bit grander, perhaps. Actually he could claim "the Doctor" as his shtick is doctoring history!!!
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